4051. They were anxious that the publicans who took their beer should raise Mr. J. J. Homer. the price, in order that they might sell a genuine article?—Yes.

4052. You say that has been done generally throughout the town?—I should say very generally; there are a few exceptions; if they raise the price to 3 d. they can make a very fair profit indeed.

4053. Is it not more than the tax?—Yes; but the public get a better quality, which they did not before, through this amber being used.

4054. Mr. Gregson.] I see beer is still advertised at some of the houses at 3 d. Is all the 3 d. beer adulterated with this amber?-I should not like to go so far as to say that.

4055. Is that your impression?—Yes; because it is charged 36 s. a barrel; a man cannot sell it for the same price, and live, and pay his expenses.

4056. Chairman.] Have you any suggestion to make to the Committee of any amendments in the law-I would say, with reference to the licensing system, that I think the suspension of licences operates as a check against the transgression of the law on the part of licensed victuallers.

4057. What do you call a suspension of licences. I understand the houses are never closed, but they go on precisely the same? Perhaps the proper term would be adjournment of the licence; it is considered a suspension of the licence; that is the phrase we know it by. A friend of mine, living at Dalston, who is a very respectable man and realised a good deal of money in business, by the name of Griggs, who kept the Tyssen Arms, had his licence suspended by the licensing magistrates. It appears that an information was laid against him before a stipendiary magistrate, for opening his house two minutes before one o'clock on Sunday. That information was either dismissed on the payment of costs, or with the infliction of 5 s., or some trivial fine. I know when he found that the bench of magistrates suspended his licence, it had just this effect, he considered himself a numiliated, degraded man, and he left his house and went out of business immediately.

4058. The magistrates did not refuse the licence?—No; they gave it upon the adjournment day, but still it operated so powerfully upon the man, inasmuch as he had kept his house for 30 years, and never had an isolated complaint made against him. A revision of the licences by the magistrates, and a suspension or adjourned consideration of them, has a good tendency; it prevents transgressions of the law in this way; it is a well known fact in my neighbourhood, if a man has his licence suspended it is said, "Mr. so-and-so has had his licence sus pended for serving on Sunday morning, or during prohibited hours." The people being very religious in Hackney, say, We will take our custom from this man, and give it to a man who does not disobey the law. I know that servants have been directed to go to some beershop, or a better regulated house. The man has to get up a petition, and employ counsel to go on the adjournment day to make out his case, and say he is extremely sorry, and that the offence shall not occur again.

4059. In short, he is put to great inconvenience-Yes, and expense. With regard to preventing the violation of the law from Saturday night to Sunday at one o'clock in the afternoon, I take the same view that Mr. Stinton does. I think you should punish the customer as well as the publican. I do not know a more effectual method of preventing infractions of the law on Sunday than that would be. I will give a case in illustration of this point. Some years ago, a man of the name of Lane had a sort of theatre in Shoreditch, which he carried on without any interference on the part of the police for a considerable time; however, it seemed there was a clause in some Police Act by which the people there present could be taken by the police before a magistrate; the effect of that was, that in less than a fortnight the place was closed.

4060. I believe the same system is recognised in other cases, with respect to prize-fights and gaming-houses?-Exactly.

4061. How would you secure their being informed against, with the object of preventing Sunday trading ?-I do not know; the police ought to be a little more strict in reference to these houses, and see that they do not evade the law.

4062. You heard what Mr. Stinton said, that the policeman has almost an inducement not to do so, seeing that he has to attend on Monday at the magistrates' court, when he ought to be in bed ?-The superintendent of police might appoint a certain number of men to look after these houses on Sunday morning.

20 June 1854.

Mr. J. J. Homer.

20 June 1854.

4063. Do you believe that there is an extensive violation of the law with respect to Sunday trading?--I am afraid there is in some neighbourhoods; a licensed victualler told me that he could not live but for the Sunday morning trading.

4064. Was that within a few years?—Yes; there may be sympathy expressed for the man and his family, but for society it is better that the licence should be taken away. About eight or nine years ago the magistrates were determined to put down Sunday trading in the Tower Hamlets division, and they took away six or seven licences only for serving on the Sunday; there had been only one conviction against them before the magistrates: the police reported them for serving during the prohibited hours on Sunday morning; they said, "We will take the licences away;" they were taken away, and then there was a great feeling got up on the part of the people. "Poor things!" they said, "here is a man that has got a large family; it is destruction to him and ruin," and all that sort of thing. The houses were shut up; on the men going to the quarter sessions the magistrates did not support their convictions except in one case, which was a very bad case; therefore all the licences were given by the quarter sessions, upon appeal, except that one.

4065. You would have a more rigorous administration of the law?—Yes; all the respectable licensed victuallers in London, and I dare say it is so in the country, are exceedingly anxious that some stringent regulations should be made to prevent Sunday morning trading; I believe it is carried on to a considerable extent, and is a great cause of drunkenness. If a man can get beer at a beershop or public-house between the interdicted hours, he does do so, and the moment the public-houses are opened according to law he enters tipsy; whereas, if he could not get the drink, he would be clean shaved, and sitting comfortably with his family at dinner.

4066. Mr. Gregson.] By law, they cannot get it?-No, but the law is evaded. 4067. Chairman.] Is there anything else which you wish to state?-One thing I would suggest as to the power of the police to enter public-houses in cases of drunkenness and disorderly conduct. The wife of a friend of mine, in Shoe-lane, was assaulted by a drunken fellow, because she refused to serve him with anything to drink; he struck her over the back part of her head, and took hold of her hair; there was no one at hand to render her assistance.

4068. If she had called in the police she could have given that person in charge for assault?—He is not allowed to enter unless he hears a cry of murder.

has.

4069. Mr. Gregson.] Is it not the case that landlords are disposed to call for the police instead of making every exertion to clear their houses themselves?Drunken men are very refractory. A man will come in and say, "I will have something to drink; I have not had too much;" although it is manifest that he "I will not move from this place;" and all the quiet and respectable customers are annoyed by two or three drunken fellows who come from some other house, and who will be served before they will go out. In extreme instances it is impossible to persuade the man to go home without it. He says, "I will not leave unless I have some drink," and yet we cannot have the assistance of the police to prevent this annoyance.

4070. Chairman.] In your opinion, there ought to be somebody specially appointed to watch the houses of licensed victuallers, and they should have the power to require their assistance in cases of persons refusing to leave those houses?—Not specially appointed. My observation was intended only to apply to Sunday morning trading. I think the men ought to be appointed in plain clothes for that purpose.

4071. You do not mean to say that there are not plenty of infringements of the law besides Sunday trading ?-I dare say there are.

4072. Is there not gambling, harbouring bad characters, and all that sort of thing?—I dare say there are houses of that description.

4073. But the police have no business to go in ?-No, not without special orders.

4074. It is not their duty to enter the house?—No.

4075. You are the proprietor of a paper, are you not?-Part proprietor, and have occasionally contributed to the press in complaints of the kind I have mentioned; that is all.

4076. You

4076. You have not put forward your views upon this subject?—No; not Mr. J. J. Homer

at all.

The Rev. Francis Thornburgh, called in; and Examined.

4077. Chairman.] I BELIEVE you are a Clergyman of the Church of England ? -Yes.

4078. Do you hold preferment ?—Yes; the temporary church of St. Thomas Kennington.

4079. You have been lately considering the subject of closing public-houses on Sunday?—I have.

4080. What is your opinion upon that subject?-Unfavourable, under certain circumstances.

4081. You think public-houses should be open on Sunday?-For a certain time, and for a certain purpose.

4082. Are you satisfied with the law as it is?-I am not.

4083. What change would you make?-The change I would make would be this, that the houses should be open on Sunday for a certain time after morning and after evening service.

4084. That is the case now, is it not?-They are open the entire day, after one o'clock.

4085. Mr. Gregson.] At what hour does Divine service commence ?—The morning service commences at 11, and is over, we will say, at one; I should propose to allow from a quarter past one an hour, and again after the evening service, we will say from a quarter past eight, another hour.

4086. Chairman.] Why would you open them again at eight?-For the purpose of supplying to purchasers what they may require.

4087. You would close them at two, and open them a little after eight?— I would open them first after morning service for one hour, from one to two, and afterwards, from eight to nine in the evening, or thereabouts.

4088. Are those the only hours you would propose to keep them open ?—Those are the only hours; I think they would be sufficient.

4089. So that they would be open two hours during the day?—Yes.

4090. I understood you to be opposed to closing public-houses on Sunday more than they are now, but from what you have said now you would close them further?--I would close them further. I am opposed to the closing them throughout the whole day.

4091. You have published a letter upon the subject?—I have.

4092. Are those the limits you have stated in that letter?-In that letter I have said 30 minutes; perhaps if I were to write it again I should say 60 minutes; I think it would conduce more to order and decency; there might be a crowd if the houses were only open 30 minutes, as so many would require to be supplied. 4093. What objection have you to public-houses being open from one to three; what is the evil arising from that?--I think the drunkenness in public-houses on Sunday is a great public evil.

4094. They are now open from one to three, or are supposed to be; I presume people do not get drunk from one to three; do you know the contrary?—I do not know.

4095. Is there any mischief within your experience from their being open from one to three?--I think there is a necessary evil; if you allow people to congregate at any hour on Sunday in public-houses when they have nothing to do, they will be likely to get drunk; I would not allow them to drink in the public-houses at all; I would have them open for one specific object, to furnish families or individuals with whatever drink they may require to be taken away.

4096. Mr. Gregson.] To be drunk off the premises?—Yes.

4097. Chairman.] Have you been long in the Kennington district?—Yes, some

years.

4098. Are you pretty well acquainted with the habits of the people?—I am not particularly acquainted with the habits of those people, but of society at large. I am not resident.

4099. You have heard the evidence which has been given by the two preceding witnesses?—Yes.

4100. Do you differ with them or agree with them as to the inconvenience it

20 June 1854.

Rev.

F.Thornburgh.

Rev.

would occasion to a number of people who take recreation in the afternoon on F. Thornburgh. Sunday, and who always like to take their drink at that time, to have the houses closed?-I am aware that, legislate as you may, inconvenience will arise to a very considerable extent; in this case your choice lies between two evils, and not between a positive good and an evil; I believe your choice must be which of the two evils we can guard against, as being the greater of the two.

20 June 1854.

4101. Do you know whether the people would complain of it; do you think they would consider it an injustice?-Certainly; if you close the public-houses entirely, if you will not allow a man to get beer or porter for his dinner or supper, you deprive him of what habit, at least, has made an, almost, necessary of life.

4102. At present the public-houses are open after 5 o'clock for the rest of the day on Sunday; I want to know whether you think it would be a great inconve nience to close them after 5 o'clock; would the poor people consider it a great injustice, as far as you know ?—I have no doubt they would consider any change unjust.

4103. Are you of the same opinion with several other witnesses, that the poor people would not greatly object to it?-I am not. I think they would very much object.

4104. Have you met with any people who know the evil of drinking, but who cannot resist the temptation?-A knowledge of human nature is sufficient to lead us to form an opinion. There are many such.

4105. Do you think it would be practicable to close the public-houses at all, as you have proposed; there are many things which might be advantageous, perhaps, which are not practicable to be done?-It is more practicable than the measure which is contemplated by the total abolitionists; I think they excite the opposition of the poorer people by the over severity of their measure and secure, in the end, as the result, its virtual defeat.

4106. Do you think you have discovered the just medium, which would prevent the evasion of the law?—No, I do not pretend to any such discovery. The law will be evaded, more or less, legislate as you may.

4107. Do you think people would drink at their private houses if your recommendation were adopted ?-Certainly; I do not hope to succeed to the full extent which I could wish. They will drink, in many instances, we must expect, even

to excess.

4108. Where is the good of your recommendation, if you expect it to be evaded? -The scenes which are continually being enacted on Sunday mornings in publichouses, and which have been described in the evidence given by the last gentleman, would be prevented.

4109. They result from drunkenness?—Yes.

4110. If drunkenness took place in any other place, would not the same results follow-Masses meeting together cause a greater amount of drunkenness than if they were divided in small parties in their own homes; my plan would produce more domestic comfort; the man would have his porter or his beer with his family, and not by himself. By this means some restraint would exist for the drunkard, whereas now there exists none. He would have also, perhaps, spirits. We cannot prevent it.

4111. Is yours a very populous district?—It is.

4112. Are there any manufactories in it?-None.

4113. Are there not a great number of working people?—Yes.

4114. Have you witnessed many of the evils of drunkenness ?--I see on Sunday evenings quite sufficient to convince me of what ought to be done. I pass one public-house in particular; it is crowded by people who have evidently had too much to drink.

4115. Would it not be much more crowded if it were open for that one hour, as you propose?-When I propose its being open, I should have it open only for the sale of drink not to be consumed on the premises; I should not allow drink to be consumed on the premises at all on Sunday.

4116. Mr. Brown.] Are the gin-palaces open at all on Sunday evening?—Yes; the house to which I have referred is of that description.

4117. Lord D. Stuart.] They are open until a late hour on Sunday, are they not?-Yes.

4118. Till any hour after 12 o'clock ?—I believe so.

4119. Mr. Gregson.]

4119. Mr. Gregson.] Have you observed many persons intoxicated in your neighbourhood on Sunday?-Many.

4120. Lord D. Stuart.] I believe there are places in which there is Divine service in the afternoon, and where the public-houses are open from one o'clock ? -Yes, many places.

4121. Chairman.] Does the present law permit the houses to be open where there is Divine service performed?-I really do not know.

4122. Are not the houses specified in the Act?-I do not know.

4123. Sir G. Goodman.] Are you aware that in the country the hour of beginning public service in the church is half-past ten ?—Yes.

4124. Of course you are confining your observations to London ?--Yes. 4125. Mr. Gregson.] At what hour is Divine service in the evening? —Halfpast six.

4126. Is your church pretty well attended? In winter it is better attended at night than in the summer; it is fairly attended.

4127. Do you think the people prefer the gin-palace to the church ?—I do not

say so.

Mr. William Speechly, called in; and Examined.

4128. Chairman.] YOU are a Licensed Victualler?—Yes.

4129. In London ?-In the borough of Southwark.

4130. How long have you been so?-I have been there 11 years.

4131. What o'clock does your house open on Sunday afternoon?—It is open at one o'clock, and I do not shut up again till five; sometimes not so early as that; I keep open all the afternoon; we have no afternoon service; an evening service, and a morning service.

4132. What o'clock docs evening service begin ?-About six.

4133. Do you close from five for the rest of the evening?-I close till after eight, but have not done so of late.

4134. You are not obliged to do that by law?-We do it from custom as much as anything; there is Blackman-street; there are two parishes; one side of the street is in St. George's and the other in St. Mary Newington.

4135. Mr. Gregson.] You open at eight, and keep open all the remainder of the night ?--Yes.

4136. Chairman.] Do your customers consider it inconvenient, your house being closed from five to eight o'clock?-I do not think they do.

4137. Do all the publicans in your neighbourhood also close at that hour ?— No; other houses are open.

4138. What have you seen with respect to drinking and drunkenness on Sunday evening-I find a very different class come in at one, when we open, to what we find after five or after eight; we find the class of people which come in as soon as we open a dissipated, low class of people, and they stay and drink their beer very imprudently, and use very bad language.

4139. Between one and five o'clock?-Yes. In the evening I find, when we are open, a very different class of people come indeed; that class which probably have their dinner at home with their families generally. Others have been out by the railroads and steamboats, and they spend money freely; I never find them drunk and dissipated, like the parties that come in at one o'clock.

4140. How do you account for that; is it not generally for dinner-beer they come in at one o'clock?—I think they come in and drink instead of going to their dinner.

4141. They are a low class of people?-Yes. I am only speaking of my own house. I should be very glad to get rid of them. I have no objection to close my house at all from one to five. I consider the one o'clock closing has done a good deal of good; it would do more if they were closed till five; the people would be obliged to provide their families with dinner, and be obliged to stop at home and partake of it, if the public-houses were not open at all till five. I think the prudent people would provide for themselves; and the imprudent, if they did not, so much the better for them.

4142. You think they would provide beer on the Saturday?—Yes.

4143. Is there any inconvenience at all in providing beer on Saturday?— None; I think it is quite as good out of a bottle as out of the butts.

4144. Is there anybody who closes his house near you?-One or two close entirely.

Rev.

F. Thornburgh.

20 June 1854.

Mr. W. Speechly.