bridge, you would use it for the purpose of taking traffic from Haydon-square?— B. W. Horne, Esq. Most certainly, and relieve London Bridge. 1204. If it is of great importance to you, would it not be equally important to every other person engaged in business to have an additional communication ?— Yes, but not so important to others as to ourselves, because the nature of our business is this, we are general collectors. There is scarcely a tradesman who does his own carrying business. With regard to the goods that we take out of London, everything is done by ourselves; we carry them from merchant's door to merchant's door; there is no middle party. 1205. Mr. Wilkinson.] If a bridge were constructed near the Tower, it would be in a direct line from your house of business?-Precisely so. 1206. Would it not very much relieve your traffic which you bring over London Bridge?—Yes, as a matter of course. But then that is very peculiar, from the circumstance of our station being in the Minories. 1207. Is not there a large amount of traffic in that direction?—Yes; it would be the first station in London for business to and from the Borough and Bermondsey. 1208. Is it not very convenient for the traffic from the docks?--Yes, we have all the docks close to us. 1209. Chairman.] Do you think that the Thames Tunnel could be made of use in diminishing that excessive traffic over London Bridge?-No; I think it is too far up the river for that purpose. In our connexion we do not take solitary loads; but if we have half a ton or a ton to collect at one place, and the same at another, we take them, and go over London Bridge with a full load. 1210. Mr. Jackson.] Leaving your firm out of the question, and looking at it without reference to any particular cases, do you think that a bridge across the Thames at the Tower would be a great public convenience?-I do not think it would be so much so as the getting Southwark Bridge opened. We have another means of doing all the business that this bridge contemplates, which would quite supersede it. 1211. Then you are not of opinion that the same relief would be afforded by a bridge below London Bridge as by one above-Nothing like it. The increase of the traffic from the south to the north, taking the railway communications, is immense, independently of those who are in the neighbourhood. 1212. Mr. Pellatt.] With regard to the business interest, should you think St. Paul's a good position for a bridge?—No, I do not think it would be. 1213. A bridge below London Bridge would be better than one above London Bridge? For one portion of the traffic only. But a plan struck me, which I endeavoured to carry into execution some years ago. I suggested to the Southwark Bridge Company to let us have one year's trial, by throwing the bridge open. We offered to subscribe We offered to subscribe money for the purpose, just to show them the quantity of vehicles that would really gc over it, because all the Surrey conveyances and carriages go to Gracechurch-street; whereas many of them going to the Exchange would go over this bridge if it were toll-free. 1214. Do you do much business on the south side of the bridges -Yes. 1215. Do you find much impediment from the nature of the roads on the south side of Southwark Bridge ?-Yes; we cannot go with any degree of certainty, but we are obliged to use it because we cannot take Blackfriars, and we cannot take London Bridge. Sitting as I do in my office, and looking at the street, I am often grieved to see so noble a street open, left open for hours together, without more than three, four, or half-a-dozen vehicles passing. I myself prefer to pay 2d. toll when I go to the Borough; by that means I save three or four minutes. And I certainly think that, if we could get an approach from about the Mansion House to Queen-street, to the iron bridge, with two pretty good roads, one to the left and another to the right. you would find the access to the South-western Railway, and Surrey district, and Borough, very much improved. At present you find that the omnibus to a particular train, for example, to the 5. 35 train, starts from Gracechurch-street, over the iron bridge, at five o'clock in the afternoon, to catch the train. It chooses Southwark Bridge, because it cannot go by either of the other two bridges with any degree of certainty as to time. 15 June 1854. P. R. Baly, Esq. 21 June 1854. Vide Appendix, No. 13; Price Prichard Baly, Esq. called in; and further Examined. 1216. Chairman.] DO you wish to give the Committee any further evidence -I simply wish to give in some documents to illustrate the proposed alteration of Charing Cross Bridge into a carriage bridge. 1217. Will you hand them in?-(The same were handed in.) Jovis, 22° die Junii, 1854. Mr. John Guy, called in; and Examined. 1218. Lord R. Grosvenor.] WHERE do you live?-On the border of Bushey Park, at Hampton Wick. 1219. You are in the habit of making use of Hampton Court Bridge?—Yes, very much; but I make much more use of the other bridge in the neighbourhood, viz. Kingston Bridge; it is more in my way to London than the other; we cannot get away from Hampton Wick without crossing either Kingston Bridge or Hampton Court Bridge. 1220. Perhaps you can give the Committee some information with regard to both ?-I know more of Kingston Bridge, but I can speak to both; Hampton Court Bridge was built under an Act of George the Second. 1221. With regard to Hampton Court Bridge, can you inform the Committee all the terms of the Act of Parliament under which it was built?—Yes; the Act was the 23d of George the Second, in 1749; I have here an extract from the clause as to the power of redemption of the Crown. 1222. Can you state to the Committee the privileges which were granted ?— It was to one James Clarke, and his heirs and assigns, who was at that time the lessee of the manor of Moulsey, under the Crown. 1223. What did the Act of Parliament empower him to do?-To build the bridge, upon the condition that at the end of 26 years it should be redeemable by the Crown, or rather by his then Majesty, "his heirs and successors," on payment of the cost of the erection; I have in my hand an extract from the clause itself, which has been printed separately. 1224. Chairman.] Will you hand it in?-(The same was delivered in.) 1225. Lord R. Grosvenor.] Since that bridge was built, toll has been constantly taken upon it?-Constantly taken; and it is a very excessive toll; it is one of the largest upon the River Thames. 1226. Do foot passengers pay?—Yes, they pay each way. 1227. How much do they pay ?-They only pay a halfpenny each way, but they pay double on Sunday; and a horse, or any animal, pays 2d. each way, and a vehicle of any kind, with one horse, pays 6d. 1228. In fact, they charge more at this bridge than you pay at Kingston ?— Yes; nearly double or treble; and yet the revenue is less than half. 1229. Mr. Wilkinson.] Should you not rather say that in consequence of this difference the revenue is less than half?-Although the toll is more than double or treble, yet the produce of the toll is less by at least one-half. 1230. Lord R. Grosvenor.] Do you consider that the amount of toll turns away traffic from that bridge?-Yes, I am sure it does. I have known instances of people walking three miles round to avoid that toll. 1231. You have stated that in the original Act of Parliament, power was given to the Crown to put an end to the toll, by purchasing the bridge, on payment of the cost of the bridge. Do you know what the cost of the bridge was? -I do -I do not; but I know what it was sold for about 25 years ago. It was purchased by the present proprietor about 25 years ago from the assignees of Mr. Clark for 7,000 l. 1232. It is a wooden bridge, is it not?-It is a wooden bridge, and very steep in the centre. 1233. Can you inform the Committee whether the Crown has ever made any offer to purchase the bridge?—No, I believe they never have. But the only title that the holders of the bridge have to a toll at all is by the Act of Parliament; and therefore they must have taken the bridge with notice of the right of the Crown to purchase at the original cost. 1234. You mean to say that the present purchaser purchased, knowing that the Crown has the power of redemption ?-He must have done so, because he certainly had no other title than that given by the Act of Parliament. 1235. Can you inform the Committee in what state of repair the bridge is ?The bridge is considered in the neighbourhood to be very unsound. 1236. Do you know at all, of your own knowledge, that the bridge is in an unsound state?—I cannot say so from my own knowledge, I merely speak from report. I should not be able to tell, if I examined it, whether it was in a good state of repair or not. I dare say the surveyor will know more about it than I do. 1237. Mr. Alderman Cubitt.] Does the power of purchase to which you have alluded, still exist in the Crown --Unquestionably; because since the title to the toll exists under the Act of Parliament, the purchaser would necessarily have notice of that clause, and must therefore be liable to the redemption. 1238. The Act of Parliament says that the bridge shall be liable to redemption at any time after the expiration of 26 years ?-The words of the Act are, "at any time hereafter." The maxim nullum tempus occurrit regi would unquestionably apply, even if the statute did not give express power to the Crown to redeem the bridge at any future time. 1239. Mr. Wilkinson.] Does not the clause give to the Crown the power of redeeming the bridge upon paying all expenses, including the expenses of maintenance up to this time? I believe that the purchaser would be very sorry to keep to the terms of the Act, for the produce has been much more than the interest and expenses. It 1240. There is no provision in this clause that the produce should be deducted. says that his Majesty shall have the power of redeeming the bridge upon paying "all such sum and sums of money as he and they shall have advanced, paid, and expended for and upon account of the procuring and passing of this Act, and for and upon account of erecting, maintaining, and supporting the said bridge, and preserving and improving the said navigation, and all such sum and sums of money as he and they shall have advanced, paid, and expended for and upon account of the purchase of any lands, tenements, or hereditaments as aforesaid, and also for and on account of doing and performing all such other matters and things as are hereinbefore authorised to be done and performed "--Yes; that is the same sort of clause as is always inserted in mortgage deeds, where the mortgagees have power to redeem. But the receipts are always taken into consideration in such cases; and I apprehend that would be the legal construction of the clause. 1241. Mr. Alderman Cubitt.] Is there any clause in the Act directing that the bridge shall be free after the original cost has been repaid?-No, none whatever; and that is perhaps a singular part of it; because they are at present deriving a revenue certainly of from 1,000l. to 1,500 l. a year from a bridge which cost 7,000 l. 1242. Chairman.] It only vests in the Crown by the Act of Parliament ?The bridge only vests in the Crown by the Act of Parliament; the words are, "His Majesty, his heirs and successors," which would, I suppose, at present vest the power in the Queen. 1243. You have stated that you believe that the proprietor is deriving at present a revenue of between 1,000l. and 1,500l. a year; can you state or procure for the Committee an exact account of the amount of tolls raised there ?It is leased by the present owner to the collectors for 700l. a year; but since the lease was granted the tolls have very largely increased, in consequence of the railway. There has been a railway brought almost to the foot of the bridge, which carries most of the traffic in that direction to Hampton Court. The traffic Mr. J. Guy. 22 June 1854 Mr. J. Guy. 22 June 1854. that used to come by way of Teddington and Richmond, and Putney and Fulham and Kingston, now generally goes by the railway to East Moulsey, and then crosses the bridge; consequently the toll has very largely increased within the last three or four years. Some attempts have been made to estimate the amount of their receipts, and it is supposed that they collect about 1,500. a year there at present. 1244. Do you think that the inhabitants on both sides of the bridge desire to have it thrown open?-Unquestionably; it would be the greatest boon that they could receive. 1245. Mr. Alderman Cubitt.] You said that there was some one who could speak to the condition of the bridge; who is it?-There is a gentleman here, who is a surveyor in the neighbourhood, who perhaps could speak with reference to its condition. I can speak to it to this extent; the ascent on both sides is very steep; it is a very old bridge, and it is on account of the steep ascent and descent, and the vibration, exceedingly dangerous; of this I have often seen instances with regard to the traffic to and from Hampton Court. 1246. Your answer has reference rather to the value of the bridge to the present proprietors than of its value to the public?—Yes; but its condition could only be ascertained by knowing the state of the foundations, we have no means of forming an opinion about that; but with regard to the danger to the traffic, I can speak positively. On such a day as to-day, which is the grand day of the Moulsey races, there would be, perhaps, 2007. or 3007. collected there in pence, and you would see carriages and horses, and all species of vehicles stopped at this gate upon this steep ascent; I have myself repeatedly seen accidents happen there to people coming from the races. 1247. Lord R. Grosvenor.] You are quite as well, if not better, acquainted with Kingston Bridge than with Hampton Court Bridge?—Yes, I am. 1248. Will you inform the Committee whether that bridge is much used?— It is the main thoroughfare after Richmond for, I should say, the whole of the line connecting Middlesex and Surrey in that district, because there is a great sweep of the river at that point; and when I state that the toll collected at Kingston Bridge is about 2,500 l., whereas that collected at Hampton Court is only 1,200 . or 1,500 l., it will be evident that the main traffic across the river is over Kingston Bridge. 1249. It is the main means of communication between Middlesex and Surrey for a large district?-For a district extending over 11 or 12 miles. 1250. Do not people residing further up the river cross Kingston Bridge to go to London ?-It is the nearest way from any part of Hampton, Shepperton or Walton, or the other places in that direction to London. The inhabitants of these places come over Kingston Bridge as the nearest way to London. 1251. Is it a good bridge, and in a good state of repair?-It is a very good bridge, and in excellent repair. 1252. Is it a stone bridge?--Yes, it is a stone bridge. It was built by Mr. Lapidge, the surveyor of Surrey, about 25 years ago. 1253. Was it not built at the joint expense of the two counties of Middlesex and Surrey-It was built under an Act of Parliament, and the money was raised by a loan, I believe, from the Exchequer. 1254. Is the loan to be repaid out of the tolls?-It is repaid by gradual repayments. 1255. When was that Act of Parliament obtained -I think it was in the year 1825. 1256. Did not a bridge exist there before that time?-Yes, a free bridge existed previously, and had existed for centuries; but the approaches to it were inconvenient, and numerous accidents took place at the turnings of the whole street, and that bridge was a wooden one, and somewhat out of repair; I always fancied that it was not necessary that there should have been a new bridge. Indeed, I know that a person offered to maintain Kingston Bridge for 50 years at the cost of 100 7. a year. But the Act was obtained, and a toll placed on it. As far as I can discover, there never had been a toll upon the old bridge. 1257. You have stated that the present bridge was built in 1825?—The Act was obtained in 1825; it was built in two years succeeding. 1258. The bridge built in 1828 is in good repair, which the former bridge was not, but it has a toll which the other had not. Do you know whether in the provisions of the Act of Parliament, under which the bridge was built, there is any any provision for the cessation of the toll, when the amount expended in the erection of the bridge has been paid off?-There is a provision in the Act, that any surplus toll should be applied in the redemption of the cost of the bridge. 1259. You stated, that you believe that it was built by a sum of money borrowed from the Exchequer Loan Commissioners. Are you aware of the nature of the transaction with the Exchequer Loan Commissioners?-The money was lent at 3 per cent. to the Corporation of Kingston, and they were to pay the interest and a portion of the principal every year. 1260. Can you tell the Committee what debt remains still upon the bridge? -Yes; there is a debt of 31,000 l. remaining out of 45,000 l. 1261. Is the Committee to understand, that in the course of the 26 years which have elapsed since the bridge was built, the sum of 15,000 7. has been paid off-About 14,000 l. has been paid off. 1262. Was the amount which you have stated, the whole amount of the cost of the bridge and its approaches ?-£.45,000 was the entire cost, except that I believe a portion of some property which I believe the bridge possesses was sold, but to a trifling amount. 1263. Is the sum which you have stated the whole amount of debt now remaining for the bridge?-The whole amount of debt remaining is thirty-one thousand and some odd pounds. 1264. How much is paid off now every year?-I should say nearly 1,000 7. capital is paid off every year; it varies a good deal; when there is less interest to pay, of course more of the principal is paid; it is a sort of sliding scale; but on an average, at present we are paying off certainly 700 l. or 8007. of capital yearly. 1265. The interest annually diminishing, of course every year there will be a larger amount of principal paid, providing the toll remains the same?—It is calculated that it will take 25 years more to liquidate the debt; there are some gentlemen here to-day, and among them the mayor of Kingston, who can tell you more about that than I can. 1266. Can you state whether there have been any meetings held in the neighbourhood for the purpose of discussing the question of throwing open the bridge to the public free of toll?-There have been public meetings held at Kingston, Hampton, Hampton Court, Walton, Richmond, Weybridge, Staines, Putney and Fulham, and throughout the surrounding neighbourhood; I do not think there is a place at which there has not been some public meeting. 1207. What resolutions have generally been passed at those meetings?—The resolutions have been, that the tolls are very vexatious in their collection, and in their obstruction of the public, and very detrimental to trade, and to free communication; and instances have been adduced without number of the mode in which people put themselves to considerable inconvenience to avoid the tolls; inconvenience probably of 10 or 50 times the amount of the actual toll, as many persons will consider it. 1268. What means have they suggested as best adapted for the purpose of purchasing the tolls of the bridge?-The meetings have generally shrunk from fixing any particular mode, because they felt that they might be fettering themselves, or seeking a mode of redemption that would be objectionable; but I think I might say that every meeting which I have attended, and I have attended three, has come to the conclusion either that a rate on the counties of Middlesex and Surrey should be the source from which the funds ought to be supplied, or that if the London bridges were to be dealt with by any other course, the same course ought to be applied to the country bridges. 1269. At those meetings, was the propriety of continuing the coal duty taken into consideration ?-It was very much discussed. 1270. What was the opinion generally prevailing ?--There seems to be a great difference of opinion as to the time which it would take to redeem if the coal duty were continued; but the opinion was universal that if, by means of the coal duty, all the bridges could be freed from toll in a certain time, so that the public would feel that, after that limited time, they would be freed from this duty, the tax would be a very proper one to apply to the purpose. 1271. Do you know whether the people so discussing were aware that, by the present Act of Parliament, the coal tax will cease in 1860 ?-I do not think that they were generally aware of that. 1272. What was your impression with reference to the general opinion, was it Mr. J. Guy. 22 June 1854. |