Mr. Anderson-continued. chance of bad sovereigns?-I do not myself attach much value to either objection.

2287. Then you are quite in favour of 17. notes?—I should not mind seeing them at all.

Mr. Mulholland.

2288. May I ask you what proportion of your discounts are in the country, and what in London? We have no figures by which we could show you that difference.

2289. Is there a large proportion in London? -No, excepting brokers' bills. As I have stated repeatedly, our London business is a small one, and does not affect the general return considerably.

2290. It is smaller relatively in deposits, I suppose, than it is in discounts?-It is smaller altogether.

2291. Have you a considerable number of brokers' bills in these 15,000,000?—Yes.

2292. And that is a business, I suppose, which you consider you can manage better by having a house in London ?-When our head office was in London formerly, we managed that business just the same as we do now. We have gained no advantage by opening for business in London as regards the transaction of that class of business.

2293. If, as was asked you lately, you include your balance at the Bank of England, along with your cash in hand, of course in comparing it with the statement of the Scotch banks, they should also get credit for the balance in hand at their London bankers?-Clearly, so far as concerns their English branches.

2294. Have you been able to form any opinion from your experience since you came to London, whether, if your right of issue had not been taken from you there would have been as much circulation of your notes within the 65 mile radius ?There could have been no issue within the 65 miles. We have very few branches that come at all near that radius. Our branches, as a rule, are more distant.

2295. Are you able to form an opinion to form an opinion whether the fact of your having brought your head quarters to London would have seriously influenced the circulation of your notes within the 65 mile radius ?--It might to a certain extent, but it is impossible for me to form any opinion upon that.

2296. The object, of course, of preventing the location of banks of issue in London was to prevent their interfering with the action of the Bank of England upon the Exchanges?-Quite

Mr. Orr-Ewing-continued. charges you 9 d. per cent.?-In my former evidence I stated very clearly that such was the case, that we had accounts with several agents.

2301. And therefore they only charge you the same as you charge them?-Quite so; but we send them 2,000,000 7. of cheques, &c., and possibly they send us one-third of that for all our agents together.

2302. You send them a larger amount than they send you?—Yes.

2303. But still the percentage is the same?Yes, with our agents. As to banks, which are not our agents, my answer was given just now. Sir John Lubbock.

2304. That is a special arrangement of yours, but you were speaking before of the general arrangement?-Quite so.

Mr. Kavanagh.

2305. (To Mr. Wade.) You were a bank of issue, were you not ?--Yes.

2306. Did you find when you gave up your issue, that there were many lost notes that came in afterwards?—Yes; and they come in to this day now and again.

2307. Of course, if they come in they were not lost? We cannot form an estimate yet, because they come dropping in from week to week.

Mr. Hubbard.

2308. Can you state what amount of your former circulation is still out?-About 12,000 7. out of 442,000 l.

Mr. Backhouse.

2309. Has not the use of cheques very much lessened the necessity for circulation by the medium of notes?-No doubt of it.

Sir Graham Montgomery.

2310. Supposing that Parliament sanctioned all note-issuing banks that now issue notes in the three kingdoms coming to London, would your

bank ask to have its note issue restored to it,

seeing that you have been so successful without it?-Certainly we should, as equity. a question of

Mr. Backhouse.

2311. Is not the amount of issue of country banks, as compared with their business, much smaller than it used to be 50 or 60 years ago?— I should think so, but I have not examined the figures.

2312. The business and the wealth of the country having so largely increased, whereas the issue of notes has not increased, the proportion must be smaller, must it not?-Yes, it must be so.

2313. You have such a varied business that you can apply your surplus gold by sending it from one branch to another, I suppose?--Yes, it entirely depends upon the state of trade in the large manufacturing districts.

2314. Have you had to call up more capital in consequence of losing your issue? Not on account of giving up our issue; but we have increased our capital from time to time, and we shall no doubt continue to do so as our liabilities increase.

2315. Do you think it is desirable that where business is increasing, and liabilities are increas

2318. (To Mr. Atkinson.) If you take a small country branch it would cost you 500 l. a year, I suppose?-From 500 l. to 6007., I should think; not quite so much, perhaps, for the smallest. (Mr. Wade.) I should put it at from 400l. to 500 7.

2319. (To Mr. Wade.) Do you think that the English public, having been so long accustomed to a gold circulation, would now like to revert to 1. note circulation?-I can only judge the English by other nations, who have found no difficulty in accommodating themselves to use paper instead of coin, and, I suppose, it would come to pass in the same way in England.

Sir John Lubbock.

2320. Is there not a great advantage in a large circulation of coin, in case the foreign exchanges should be against us, or in case of a bad harvest? -No doubt that would be so, but, I suppose, that the 17. note circulation would not be of such magnitude as materially to interfere with that.

Mr. Beckett Denison.

2321. During the period that you retained your circulation, did your notes run payable at all your branches?-No, only at the branches from which they were issued, and in London they were payable at our agents.

Mr. Backhouse.

2322. But practically, you never refused to cash your own notes at any of those branches, I take it?-No.

Mr. Goschen.

2323. Do you know what estimate has been formed of the amount of sovereigns circulating in the country?--I do not.

Mr. Beckett Denison.

2324. At those branches at which your notes. were not payable in coin had you to keep a larger amount of gold than you otherwise would have done?—No, I should think not.

Mr. Anderson.

2325. Did you issue the same notes over and over again?—Yes..

2326. Not like the Bank of England?-Not like the Bank of England.

Mr. Torr.

2327. Supposing that the Government were to decide to discontinue the issue of notes by private bankers, and to substitute Bank of England notes, do you think that the trade of the country generally would be injured by it?-No, I should think not materially; but I should be sorry to see it.

Sir John Lubbock.

2328. (To Mr. Atkinson). In answer to the honourable Member for Dumbarton, you stated your special arrangements with certain of the Scotch banks; in the answer which you gave to me, I think you were stating the general course of the business in England?—Yes.

2329. That explains the apparent contradiction between the two statements?—Yes.

Chairman.

2330. (To Mr. Fitzgerald.) WILL you state what is your connection with the Irish banks ?I am Solicitor for the Hibernian Bank in Dublin, and I have been so for the last 10 years.

2331. (To Mr. Belton.) What position do you hold?—I am the General Manager of the Munster Bank.

2332. (To Mr. Fitzgerald.) Is the Hibernian Bank an issuing bank?-No, it is a non-issuing bank.

2333. Have you given your attention to the law affecting the Irish banks?-I have, in the first instance, as regarding the Irish banks, and I can state it very shortly; the first Act was passed in 1781 under that Act the Bank of Ireland was established, and Section 14 prohibited the establishment of any other joint stock bank of issue in Ireland. By a joint stock bank I mean a bank of over six partners; that is the definition I understand that is given to it. The law remained in that state from 1781 to 1821, the prohibition was then relaxed, and it became lawful to establish joint stock banks of issue at any place in Ireland exceeding the distance of 50 miles from Dublin, provided the members of such banks resided not less than 50 miles from Dublin;

that is to say, that every shareholder should reside more than 50 miles from Dublin. In 1825 an Act was passed enabling persons resident in any part of Great Britain or Ireland to become members of such banks of issue.

2334. Did it still remain necessary that the business should be carried on 50 miles from Dublin?-Fifty miles Irish, which is equivalent to about 64 miles British. In 1828 an Act was passed prohibiting the negotiation in England of any bank note under 5 l. issued in Scotland or Ireland. In 1830 an Act was passed enabling the banks of issue to have agents in Dublin to pay

their notes. In 1844 the Bank Charter Act was passed, and section 10 prohibited any bank from issuing notes, except such banks as were issuing notes on the 6th of May 1844, so that our non-issuing banks came within the scope of the 10th section. Then in 1845 was passed what I call the Irish Bank Act, which regulates the issue of notes on the same basis as the Act of 1844, and it authorises all the Irish banks of

Chairman-continued.

issue to establish themselves in Dublin; so that at the present moment all the Irish banks of issue may establish themselves in any part of Ireland, and carry on business, and issue their notes and pay them there. That is the whole of the statute law relating to the banks of issue in Ireland.

2335. What is the position of the Irish banks with reference to the power of having branches in England?-According to our reading of the Act of 1826, they are entitled to do so, but that Act is surrounded by a good deal of doubt. doubt. As we understand it, the Act of 1826 enables any joint stock bank to carry on the business of bankers in England, and to issue their notes in any part of England 65 miles from London, provided that they shall not have any place of business as bankers in London; that would have entitled the Irish bankers to come to England within the meaning of that section. The Act of 1833, as I understand it, enables joint stock banks of issue to have agents in London to pay their notes for sums of not less than 5 l., so that our Irish banks might have come and established themselves outside the 65 miles radius, and had agents in London ts pay their notes.

2336. You are aware that an English bank of issue establishing itself in London is obliged to surrender its right of issue, but you hold that that is not the ease with an Irish bank of issue? -Under the strict meaning of that Act, I think it is not.

2337. What Irish banks have established themselves in London?-The National Bank of Ireland is the only one that I am aware of. The Provincial Bank of Ireland has an office in London, and I understand that it has an agency to transact its ordinary business.

2339. (To Mr. Fitzgerald.) They do not do any business in London, I think?-I know that they have a place here, and I know that they are an Irish bank, and a well conducted one.

Chairman.

2340. Can you draw any distinction between the position of the National Bank of Ireland and of any other issuing bank that there may be in Ireland ?—No, I should say that they were the same. There is nothing in the statute-law, at all events, that makes any distinction between them.

2341. When did the National Bank come to London? I should think about the year 1835.

2342. Before the Act of 1844, at all events?— Before the Act of 1844.

2343. Has the right of your bank to come to London, to your knowledge, ever been chailenged?-Never to my knowledge.

2344. And you are not aware that any legal opinions have been taken upon the subject upon the part of the Irish banks ?-None, to my knowledge.

way.

2348. When was the bank established ?-In 1824.

2349. And you have branches, I believe ?-I think that we have 34 branches, including subbranches.

2350. You have to work those with money, and without having notes, as your competitors have?-All the banks of issue are now beside us; four of them, have established themselves in Dublin in close proximity to the Hibernian Bank. 2351. What is your subscribed capital? £. 2,000,000.

2352. And what is the paid-up capital?£. 500,000.

2353. You are an unlimited bank, are you not? -We are unlimited.

2354. You have purchased other banks?-We have purchased the Union Bank, which was an English bank established in Dublin, but which wished to retire about six years ago.

2355. Where are your branches?-Principally in Leinster, but they go into Ulster, too, and there are one or two in Connaught.

2356. (To Mr. Belton.) You are general manager, I believe, of the Munster Bank?-Yes. 2357. When was that bank established ?-In 1864.

2358. What were the circumstances that originated that bank?-The merchants and traders of the south felt that they wanted such an institution generally through the country, and established the Munster Bank to supply the want.

2359. What were the principal banks then doing business in the south? The Bank of Ireland, the Provincial Bank, and the National Bank; the Provincial and the National Banks had the principal business; they were more spread over the country and had more branches.

2360. And there was a general feeling, I

Mr. William Shaw-continued. think, that there was not sufficient banking accommodation for the business of the country ?Yes, there was a general feeling that there were many towns that could support a bank that had not the advantage of one.

2361. Will you mention a few of the towns that we found without banks?—I think that we opened branches in 15 or 16 towns, where there was not a bank at all before that time. We opened in Bantry, in the west of the county Cork; in Kilmallock in the county Limerick; in Caherciveen, in the county Kerry; in Kinsale, in the county Cork; in Fethard, in the county Tipperary; in Cahir, in the county Tipperary; in Kenmore, in the county Kerry; in Dunmanway, in the county Cork; in Ennistymon in the county Clare; in Mountrath, in Queen's County; in Baltinglass, in the county Wicklow; in Newmarket, in the county Cork; in Kilfinane, in the county Limerick; in Castletown, Berehaven, in the extreme west of the county Cork; in Kildysart, in the county Kerry; in Tarbert, in the county Kerry; in Tallow, in the county Waterford; in Naas, in the county Kildare, and in Dunlavin. We opened also in other towns where there were banks before.

2362. Most of those were considerable towns, were they not?-Most of them were considerable towns. In all of them, the merchants and traders. of Cork had received from residents there, representations of the want of banking accommodation.

2363. And in every case we were solicited by the local business people to open a branch there?—Yes, in every instance; and we are still solicited from a great many places.

2364. Some of those towns, I believe, are towns of 5,000 or 6,000 inhabitants?—Yes.

2365. What was the general state of banking then; was there anything considerable allowed on deposits by the banks?-One-and-a-half and two per cent; I do not think that it ever went beyond 2 per cent. The Bank of Ireland did not allow interest then at all.

2366. And they had to keep their money, believe, for three months undisturbed?-Yes.

I

2367. The Munster Bank commenced by allowing the London rate, I believe, on deposits generally?-Yes, generally the London rate, but not making a distinction between large and small sums; it was a uniform rate.

2368. What were the distances then between some of those towns and the bank?-Bantry was 30 miles from Skibbereen, which was the nearest bank to it; and Castletown Berehaven, where the Mining Company were, I think, was some 30 or 40 miles from it, and that company used to have to send to Skibbereen, over 60 miles, for money to pay their men.

2369. And so with Kenmare?-So with Kenmare and Caherciveen.

2370. You find great difficulty, of course, in supplying these distant places with money?— Yes, it is both risky and expensive to send notes for their requirements. The ordinary requirements possibly of a small branch are trifling; but there are periodical fairs, when there is a large sum required, and the transmission of that, of course, is attended with expense and with risk.

2371. Is there any instance that you could give us?-There was an instance within the last montht of a comparatively small town in which there were only 1,327 inhabitants, and 270 houses,

and

Mr. William Shaw-continued. and the requirements for the fair in addition to the ordinary business were 10,000.

2372. You had to send that from Limerick, I suppose?-We had to send that from Limerick. 2373. How was that used generally, was it paid out in notes ?--It was paid out in notes to the farmers and country people bringing in their pigs and cattle to be sold; a great deal of it was in cheques of the National and Provincial Banks in Waterford, and the Bank of Ireland.

2374. It would be a great advantage, of course, if you could do as your neighbours do, and keep a supply of notes, and so work your business without all that expense and trouble?--No doubt.

2375. Do you think that the competition between the issuing banks and the non-issuing banks is increasing?-I think it is decidedly increasing, owing to the extension of those banks since we were established. In many cases they have opened branches beside us in towns where there never was a bank until we went there, and they have followed us.

2376. Has there been any considerable extension of branches ?-Since we went there has been a considerable extension of branches. In 1864, when the Munster Bank was established, the Bank of Ireland had only 29 branches, and they have now 49.

2377. The extension has been chiefly in the south and west of Ireland, I believe?-Yes. The Provincial Bank has not extended at all; they have the same number of branches, 43, as they had when we were established. The National Bank had 53 branches in 1864, when we were established, and they have 75 now, and a good many sub-branches, in towns where they attend weekly. 2378. And they are opening branches now in towns to which you went, are they not? -Yes. Other banks have extended as well; the northern banks have opened an increased number of branches; but that does not interfere with us, as we are not north of Dublin. Hibernian Bank has increased its number of branches considerably, but not in Munster, with very few exceptions.

The

2379. The business of the country has increased, I suppose, considerably during the last 20 years?-During the last 10 years it has increased very much; the prosperity of the country, I think, has increased very much. In 1864, when we were established, the deposit in banks was 15,623,000l., and in 1874 it was 31,734,000 1., showing an increase of 16,111,000 7.

2380. Up to that time there was hardly any inducement, was there, to depositors to put their money in banks?-A great many of them had not even the opportunity, for they lived so far from a bank, that when they got their money at a fair they were obliged to carry it home. It was too long a journey to look for a bank and deposit it there, and go for it again.

2381. So that the increase of deposits proves that the banks have been distributed, and that the people have learned to put their money into a bank and make it useful?-I have no doubt that a good deal of it comes from that; and that a great many of the deposits which we received in these remote places was money that had been lying by for a length of time, owing to the want of a place in which to deposit it.

2382. People did not understand, in fact, the use of banks in these remote districts; and, in

2386. The country is fairly inhabited, is it not? -Yes.

2387. What is the paid up capital of the Munster Bank? - The subscribed capital is 1,000,000 /., and there is 350,000l. of that paid up.

2388. What is the reserve?-The reserve is 150,000 l., and there is 20,000 7. of undivided profits.

2389. What are the deposits?-The deposits on current accounts are 2,400,000 7.

2390. Have you any statement of the number of depositors? I have. of depositors? I have. We had at the close of our last returns in December 1874, 22,116 depositors, and I classify them thus: we have 15,761 depositors having sums of 100 l. and under; we have 5,043 having been 1007. and 3007.; we have 650 having been 500 l. and 1,000 l.; and we have 167 having over 1,000 /.

2391. So that in fact, the bulk of the deposits are principally small sums?-The great bulk of the deposits are in small sums.

2392. And the multiplication of branches, of course, would bring out that money more and more? Yes, I have no doubt that there is money in many districts lying idle still, for want of any place in which to deposit it.

2393. What is the authorised issue of the Bank of Ireland and other banks?-The authorised issue of the Bank of Ireland is 3,738,428 l.

2394. What is their actual issue?-Their actual issue for May 2,895,675 l.; I have their average issue from the year 1864 downwards.

2395. On an average, I believe that they are about 1,000,000 l. under their authorised issue?

Scarcely as much under it, I think; in 1864 1865, 1866, and 1867, they were; but since then the average has been, I think, about 800,000 7. under their authorised issue.

2396. The National Bank are competitors of yours also, are they not?-Yes.

2397. What is their authorised issue ?--Their authorised issue is 852,269 l.

2398. What is their actual issue?-Their actual issue is about 1,390,000 /.

2399. So that they use their powers of issuing against gold extensively?—Yes.

2400. What is the authorised issue of the Provincial Bank of Ireland?-The authorised issue of the Provincial Bank is 927,667 l.

2401. What is their actual issue? Their actual issue, according to their last return, was 846,649 7.

2402. So that they are under their authorised issue?-Yes, they are sometimes over and sometimes under, but very little either way.

2403. And they are the principal competitors in the south, of the Munster Bank, are they not? -Yes, and the Bank of Ireland and the National Bank, I would say also, because the Provincial