72. Am I to infer, from that answer, that even when the Committee were not summoned to attend at the office, no Minute was submitted to Parliament until it had been circulated amongst all the members of the Committee ?-That would not be the uniform practice. In some instances the Lord President would take the Minute with him to the Cabinet. There has been no settled uniform practice as to the mode of ascertaining the views of the Committee upon any Minute; sometimes it has been printed and circulated, and sometimes the Lord President has settled it, as it were, in the office, between himself and his subordinates, and then has taken it with him to the Cabinet; or he may have summoned a Committee to consider it, without any of those previous steps. I have no means of knowing what steps he may have taken, after the Minute had been commenced, for ascertaining the opinions of his colleagues.

73. The action of the Cabinet is of course quite a separate question. With regard to the action of those members of the Cabinet who are also members of the Committee of Council, from your last answer I infer that there is no regular system as to the preparation of those Minutes, and that it is quite uncertain how they are prepared?This much is certain, that they are always prepared by the Secretary under the instructions of the Lord President in the first instance.

74. Was that preparatory to their being considered?—It is preparatory to their being consi

dered for decision.

75. By whom they should be considered for decision was and appears to be at this time quite a matter of uncertainty; if I understand your answer rightly, they would sometimes be considered by the Lord President and the Vice President in the office; they would sometimes be considered by a Committee of Council convened for the purpose, and they would sometimes be considered by the Lord President and Vice President in the office, and then circulated amongst the members of the Committee for them to give their written opinion; is that a correct description of the procedure ?-All those modes would no doubt have been pursued at one time or other; but the point which I wish to make plain is this, that the official sanction of the Minute is the act of a Committee of Council; but, as to the intermediate and provisional steps which may have been taken between the first preparation of the draft of the Minute in the office, and that

final and decisive act of the Committee of Council, the practice has not been settled, nor have I myself full means of stating what course each Lord President, under each set of circumstances, may have followed.

76. I presume that the decision as to which of the modes which I have now described should be adopted would rest with the Lord President? -Entirely.

77. The Vice President would have no voice? -I was thinking at the moment of the earlier days of the office. Now, I should go with a matter of that kind to the Vice President instead of to the Lord President; but with that single exception, the matter would rest, so far as I am concerned, with the Vice President either to order me to circulate the draft Minute in this way, or to carry it to the Lord President if he thought fit to do so.

78. But I understand you to state that you have known instances in which a Minute has been circulated amongst the Members of the Committee for them to give their written opinions upon it without their being convened to consult upon it? In the instances which I had in my mind that was a mere preliminary step to their meetings. I remember, for instance, between 1848 and 1850, when the question of the Management Clauses was under consideration, that red boxes were circulated with draft clauses printed for any observations which Members of the Committee might choose to make upon them, and those boxes came back in the ordinary way of circulating papers, sometimes the paper being merely returned without any remark upon it, and sometimes with remarks; but those were strictly preliminary steps to the meeting of the Committee.

79. Your answers rather suggest those three modes of action which I have described to you; I do not clearly understand from you whether the circulation of Minutes has been to obtain the sanction of the Members of the Committee in writing, or whether such a circulation has in every case been merely for the sake of giving information and of obtaining opinions on the subject?-It was a preliminary step, not in order to give their sanction in writing.

that

80. I understand you distinctly to state now you do not know of any case in which the opinion of Members of the Committee other than the Lord President or Vice President was

sought, without their meeting at the office to condistinction which I wish to draw is this that the sult? That was not what I wished to state. The actual passing of a Minute is the act of the Committee of Council, and that those other modes which I have mentioned, whether of circulating papers, or of personal communication between the Lord President or the Vice President and the other Members of the Government, were proto take advice, but that the final act by which a visional steps in order to ascertain opinions and

mittee of Council, and that is done at a meeting

Minute becomes a Minute is the act of a Com

of the Committee.

81. You mean merely in a theoretical sense, that being the recognised body; but, as to the actual personal part taken by those other members of the Committee of Council, are you or are you not aware of cases in which they have personally given their opinion upon Minutes without coming to the office for that purpose; that is to say, whether it has in any case been the practice for a box to be sent to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or the First Lord of the Admiralty, for instance, and for those officers to send back their written

opinions to the Education Office without coming personally to consult upon that Minute?—I have very little doubt that that has happened. The box would, in that case, go back to the Lord President, and not come to me, I should say.

82. When once the sanction of the Committee has been obtained to a Minute it is laid upon the tables of the Houses of Parliament in the usual way, is it not?—Yes.

83. Do you remember, since you have been Secretary, any change in the practice with regard to the mode of placing those Minutes upon the tables of the Houses of Parliament; was it at any time the practice of the Minister responsible for the Department to accompany the laying

21 March 1865.

R. W. W. of a Minute on the table by an explanation of its Lagen, Esq. purpose?-Generally speaking, it was not; but, with regard to important Minutes like those of 1846, which first began to give annual aid to schools, statements were made upon the subject of those Minutes; but whether that was done upon the actual occasion of laying them upon the table I cannot say.

84. Was it not the custom of Lord John Russell, at the time when he was President of the Council, to make some explanatory statement when he laid a Minute upon the table of the House?-I do not think so.

85. Of late that has not been the custom, has it? Of late it has not been the custom; there was never any rule the subject which made upon it in any degree obligatory upon the head of the

office.

86. We have heard a good deal of late of supplementary rules; when did the practice of making supplementary rules first commence in the Education Office ?-The supplementary rules were really in the nature of instructions and directions; a Minute is framed as concisely as may be, and the details are left to be supplied in practice; those Minutes circulate all over the country, and it is necessary, in order to transact business with precision, that there should be directions to the persons who have to act under those Minutes, as to much that is not expressed in the Minutes themselves; that is done sometimes by letters of instructions to the inspectors; but, in the particular case of the Code, it was done by what were called supplementary rules, which might, however, equally well have been called instructions to the inspectors.

87. But you have not answered my question as to when that practice of supplementary rules first began?-The actual words "supplementary rules" were used I think about 12 months ago, with reference to certain rules which were printed in explanation of the Revised Code, but the term was a simple accident; the practice of instructions to the inspectors dates as far back as the Minutes date back; there never was a Minute in

which there were not instructions to the inspec

tors upon it explaining to them the scope of the Minute, and the mode of administering it.

88. Were those instructions to the inspectors similar in principle and in form to the supplementary rules which have been issued of late? They are not similar in form; but they are in principle.

89. Have not several of those supplementary rules assumed very much the importance of Minutes, and have they not had as much influence in the mode of carrying out the education of the country as some of the Minutes themselves? -The process of administration undoubtedly is that of a judge-made law; you pass a Minute, and a practice arises under it; that practice becomes generalised, and those generalisations become subordinate rules, but very often of equal importance with the primary ones. It is under every Minute as it is under an Act of Parliament.

90. Is it not a fact that some of the supplementary rules which have been issued have been inconsistent with the Minutes to which they referred?-I should say not.

91. How were those supplementary rules decided on; was the process the same as with the

Minutes? The supplementary rules were decided upon chiefly between the Secretary and the Vice President; in the working of the Revised Code, they represent really the generalisation of decisions which arose in the daily practice of the office.

92. Then I infer from that answer that, with regard to those supplementary rules, the Lord President was not consulted?-I really cannot answer that question for certain, but in the main I should say that he was not consulted.

93. And therefore, of course, the Committee were not consulted?-Certainly not the Committee.

94. Is it not a fact stated in the last Report from your office that there are 11,000 parishes in which you would wish to make to the Committee? England which are not deriving benefit from the present system?-There is some very large number, but I forget the precise number at this

moment.

95. In the event of the Legislature wishing to extend the system to those 11,000 parishes, do you think that it could be advantageously done by your office under its present system?-No; I do not think that it could. I beg pardon; I misunderstood the question. If I am to confine myself to the constitution of the office as it exists in London, and the constitution of the chiefs, I see no reason why it should not be done.

96. Will you be kind enough to explain what you mean in that answer by the words "constitution of the chiefs?"-I mean that I consider that the Lord President, and the Vice President, and the establishment of clerks and inspectors as it exists under them, would be quite competent character which the Legislature might see fit to to transact any public business of an educational impose upon them.

97. Will you explain what you meant by your thinking then of the whole system of the present first negative answer to the question ?-I was parliamentary grant, as it is administered by the Committee of Council, of the grant itself, and of the principles of administration; and not of the

persons who administer it.

98. What do you refer to in those last words, "the principles of administration," because that is the point which the Committee are inquiring into; how do you reconcile that statement with what you have just said as to the competency of the office?-I refer to the principles upon which we aid the schools, in the country. The same office might administer widely different principles, and might be equally competent to administer whatever set of principles were assigned to it by the Legislature.

99. Is it your opinion that the efficiency of the office, and the facility with which the office superintends the education of the country, so far as it goes, would be assisted by the establishment of some local organization ?--Yes; I have a verystrong opinion upon that point.

100. Is it your opinion that even as matters stand now, and still more if some system were devised by which assistance could be extended to those 11,000 parishes, it would be possible to carry it out really with efficiency and economy without the aid of some local organisation?—No; I do not think it would.

101. Is there any suggestion upon the subject of the addition of local organisation in connection with this question of the system of administration

which you would wish to make to the Committee? -I have no plan actually worked out that I could suggest to the Committee. My own imMy own impression is very strongly that the organisation of the parish schools in Scotland affords a type well worth studying for this country, but I have not worked that out in detail.

102. You have not worked it out in detail with regard to the English system?--No.

103. But you have a strong opinion, as I understand you, that local organization would greatly add to the ficiency of the existing system?-A very strong opinion.

104. And do you think that it would greatly facilitate its extension ?-Yes.

105. Reverting to the constitution of the office in London, do you think that there are any changes in that office which you could suggest which would be likely to improve its action, and to increase the responsibility of those who conduct it? I have thought very carefully upon that point during some days past, and I am certainly not prepared to make any suggestion upon it.

106. Are the Committee to understand from that answer that you have not matured any particular plan in your mind, or, that you do not think the system capable of improvement?-I think that the system affords full guarantees for Ministerial responsibility.

107. Do you think that the due degree of Ministerial responsibility is promoted by the nominal head of the office, being Lord President of the Council in the House of Lords, and being selected with a view to other considerations, besides his fitness for the conduct of the Education of the country?—I think that the business is of that nature, that a thorough acquaintance with it can only be acquired by taking a large part in transacting it; and I certainly am of opinion, that a statesman of the age and rank of which the Lord President generally is, or of which a Cabinet Minister generally is, would not be willing to go into the drudgery, if I may use such a word, of daily business of this kind. I believe that it will generally be some younger statesman who will be willing to undertake such work; and then, if the work itself points to that kind of Minister, he is not in very direct connection with the Cabinet, and he will rarely be in the House of Lords. I think that the addition of the Lord President to the office does supply those two links, but that the working man will be the Vice President, and that it would be very difficult to find a working man, beyond the age and standing of a Vice President, to perform the duties.

108. Supposing that the office of Vice President were put an end to, and supposing that the duties which you call " drudgery," but which, in fact, consist of superintending the education of England, were fulfilled by a Minister whose time and attention were devoted to the subject, and who was himself a Member of the Cabinet, would not that meet the first part of your objection ?—I think that, while the function of the Committee of Council on Education is confined to schools for the poor, and, under the present system of Parliamentary grants, to aiding separately each school, the administration is of a very detailed kind, and is necessarily very technical.

109. Its details are technical, but they are governed by very large and important principles, are they not?—Yes.

R. W..

110. Supposing that the system were extended to those 11,000 unassisted parishes, would not the Lingen, Psa business become still more important, and still more worthy of the consideration of a statesman of high rank?-Yes: I think it would by that change.

111. Referring to the words in one of your recent answers, do you see any particular advantage in the head of the Education Department being in the House of Lords?--I think that there is one considerable advantage, namely, that the Bishops are in the House of Lords.

112. Would not the advantage of the Bishops being in the House of Lords be equally great if, as is the case in all the Secretaries of States' offices, a Secretary of the Department were sitting in the House of Lords, assuming the Minister himself to be a Member of the House of Commons?-If there was a representative of the Department in the House of Lords, that would meet the statement which I made.

113. Are you of opinion that there is nothing at all uncertain or doubtful with respect to the responsibility of the Vice President in his present position, and the circumstances which he is now under?-I think that there is a certain amount of difficulty about it; but, as I mentioned in a former answer, I have heard Lord Granville so very distinctly lay down the rule, that when he was consulted his opinion and decision were final, that I feel somewhat less doubt about it now than I did before.

114. When you expressed the opinion, as I understood you to do just now, that you could hardly expect a statesman of high rank to devote his mind to the drudgery of those parochial details, did you not rather forget at the moment that the duties of the Committee of Council are not limited to those parochial details, but that they have also the whole of the Science and Art Department under their superintendence?-I was speaking at the time of the only part of the functions of the Committee of Council that come under my own observation.

115. But is not the fact of which I am now reminding you another reason why the whole office might well form an object for the care of a Minister of high rank?-My impression is, that the administration of science and art, however interesting in itself, occupies nothing like so large a share of political importance as the administration of the schools for the poor, and that, taken alone, it would form but a small part in the responsible duties of a Cabinet Minister.

116. But still it is a portion of those duties which are now entrusted to the Committee of Council, is it not?—Yes.

117. Are the Committee to infer from your general answers, that you think it would be an improvement in the system if those duties were entrusted to a Minister of high rank, whose whole mind and time and thought should be devoted to them rather than that they should be divided as they now are between a Lord President, a Vice President, and a number of other Statesmen who are only now and then called from other duties to give an opinion?-The Committee of Council, except as a merely consultative body, I think, under the present constitution, may be put out of the account. It rests with the Lord President to summon them, or not, at any given time, and I should myself hold that the Parliamentary responsibility of the office certainly rested on the

21 March 1865.

21 March 1865.

118. Is not that very answer which you have just given itself a proof, that there is something wrong in the system, when you state that the Parliamentary responsibility rests with the Lord President and Vice President, but that some five or six other persons may be called in to control their decision?-I should not admit the word "control" further than as advice may control.

119. Supposing that there was a difference of opinion in the Committee, is it not quite possible, is it not a matter that might happen any day, that the Lord President and the Vice President might be outvoted by the other members of the Committee?—I never knew such a case happen. 120. But might it not happen any day?-If it did, I am not prepared to say that the Lord President and the Vice President would be bound to accept the vote. That is a point which I do not know.

121. Still you cannot deny the fact, that those persons whom you say are responsible to Parliament for the proper performance of the duties of that office might any day be outvoted by others of whom the public know nothing?-They might be outvoted; but, as I said, I certainly do not know that they would be bound to accept the decision of a majority of the Committee of Council.

122. Then, supposing them to be so free as you now suggest, it would come to this, that they, being the responsible persons for the duties of the office, would not be able to bring forward those measures which they think ought to pass? -I think that they would be able to bring them forward in the same way in which any other head of a department might bring forward a measure, with or without the consent of his colleagues. It seems to me that they have the same independent action that the heads of any other public department have.

123. But is there any other public department in which the Cabinet are called to an office to consult upon particular detailed measures; do you know of any case the least resembling it in any other department of the State in England? -I am speaking now with very secondhand knowledge of these matters; but committees of the Cabinet, I believe, are frequent in the conduct of the business of other departments.

124. Mr. Adderley.] All your evidence relates only to a part of the duties and functions of the Lord President, Vice President, and Department of the Committee of Council ?-To a part only.

125. It relates to the elementary education of the poor, and not to other functions which they have with regard to Science, and Art, Charity, Commissions, Military and Naval Schools, and various other things which are referred to them? -The Military and Naval Schools are referred to them only so far as the military and naval authorities may wish to have the experience of the Committee of Council for their assistance.

126. When you state that there is less responsibility resting upon the Secretary since the appointment of the Vice President, you merely refer to the fact that the annual grant and the letters of business which before rested with you

are now referred by you to the Vice President? -Yes.

127. You state that the Lord President used to attend daily at the office before the appointment of a Vice President; you mean that, since the Vice President's appointment, it is not the practice of the Lord President to attend daily ?— I am not aware that I did say that the Lord President had attended daily at the office. There are very few days, I imagine, during the Session of Parliament on which the Lord President is not at the office, but, unless I have some particular reason to see him, I have no means of knowing whether he is there or not.

128. He goes to the office for other duties; the communication between the Lord President and the Secretary has been clearly_much less frequent since the appointment of a Vice President?-Certainly it has.

129. When the Lord President summons the Committee of Council, does he always state the special object upon which they are summoned ?— It is not mentioned on the notice which summons them; they are summoned generally. As a matter of fact, I imagine that he almost always would have mentioned at the Cabinet, or in some of those ways which I described in a former part of my evidence, what the subject under consideration would be at the given meeting.

130. When the Committee meets for such a purpose, would they be anything more than a consultative body, having, perhaps, a negative voice, but in no instance suggesting any measure? No, I do not recollect any instance of their having originated any measure.

131. It would be almost impossible, would it preliminary steps, or to initiate any measure ?— not, that they should be able to deal with the measure?—

I think so.

132. So that they are simply called for the purpose of consulting, and the only function which they could exercise would be negative?Yes.

133. When the Minutes are first drafted, and referred to the Committee, are they always referred in the same way; you have mentioned various ways of referring new Minutes to the Committee, but are there no Minutes passed without any reference to the Committee of Council?-The Lord President and the Vice President could, at this time, I imagine, pass a Minute. I was trying to recollect any one which had been passed without a Committee being called; I think there must have been such

cases.

134. Did I rightly understand you to state that no Supplementary Rules had been passed eo nomine more than a year ago?-The expression Supplementary Rules" was used for the first time about a year ago.

66

135. You stated, did you not, that your suggestions as to local agency were not sufficiently matured for you to explain them more in detail? -I have no plan to submit.

136. When you speak of the organization of parish schools in Scotland, what do mean by organisation?—The Heritors' Board.

137. Did you refer to it, both recommending it as to the construction of the Board and as to their power of taxing ?-As I said, I have not a plan to submit in detail; I only referred to that as an instance of local organisation, and, in Scotland, one that has certainly worked well. 138. Is

138. Is it solely with reference to the administrative powers of such Board, or to their mode of taxation, that you would prefer that system? -The main point that I have in view is decentralization on to really responsible shoulders.

pre

139. When you spoke of the drudgery of the office being more than you could expect from a man in the position of the Lord President, I sume that you referred to the financial drudgery and the details of management in the office?-I meant it very much in connection with the subject of education itself. If you look at the best. educational appointments that are to be had, such as the head masterships of public schools, the men do not, as a rule, come from the class which commands the foremost places in political life in this country.

140. Then you think there is a drudgery special to that office which would deter men of the position of the Lord President of the Council more than the drudgery of other public offices would deter men of equal position from assuming the management of those offices?-I think the details are less attractive.

141. So far as I can gather from you, you think the necessity of a Lord President, as connected with the Education Department, is, that there should be somebody to speak for the Department in the House of Lords?—That was one point; and another was that he would more directly connect the office with the Cabinet.

142. I did not quite understand the reference to the presence of the Bishops as rendering necessary the presence of an officer of the department in the House of Lords; will you explain that?-Not necessary, but expedient; considering upon how very many questions education is connected with the Church.

143. Mr. Walter.] Referring to one of the earlier questions, may I ask you in whose name is the correspondence conducted with the managers of schools relating to annual grants on the part of the office ?-In the name of the Committee of Council.

144. You have stated, have you not, that the annual grants pass only through your hands, and not through the hands of the Lord President? All the ordinary cases would pass through my hands, or the hands of officers serving under me, only; but, with regard to any case that raised any unusual question, it would rest with myself to carry it to the Lord President or the Vice President, according to the date of which we may be speaking.

145. Then would the form of correspondence with the school managers at that time, and with reference to that subject, be in your own name or in the name of "My Lords?"-Always in the name of "My Lords."

146. So that the managers of schools who might be in correspondence with the office would have nothing to lead them to suppose that they were not in communication with the Committee of Council as a body, instead of with yourself personally as Secretary?-No; they would have nothing to lead them to that inference.

147. They would be under the impression, when they received an answer to a letter saying, "My Lords decided so and so," that the question upon which they were in correspondence had been submitted to the Committee, or to the Lord President, or to the Vice President, or to some Members of the Committee, and not to your

21 March

1865.

self only ?--The general question would always R. W. W. have had some superior authority to my own upon Lingen, Esq. it. The given Minute under which the case fell, or the given rule which disposed of the case, would always have been sanctioned by the superiors of the office, but it would have rested with me to judge whether or not the given case fell under the rule or the Minute. If I felt no doubt, I have always considered (and I believe the practice is the same in other Departments) that for the purposes of daily business the permanent officer is trusted with the name of the Department, as he might be with a common seal. uses it on his own responsibility, and, if he misuses it, the appeal lies to his chiefs; but, in the great mass of daily business, it is impossible in every given case to carry each letter to the head of the Department.

He

148. Then with regard to school managers who conceived that they were not fairly dealt with, what means would they have of satisfying themselves that their case had not been submitted to the Committee of Council, because they would be under the impression, receiving the communication in that language, that it meant what it expressed, and that their case had been decided by the Committee of Council?--In every Department I imagine the same thing would happen; that practically their case had been decided by the Committee of Council in this sense, that the Secretary, who had not actually referred it, felt certain that if he did refer it, it would be decided in that way; but I never (to the best of my belief) in my life received a letter in which a correspondent said, "I wish you would take this to the Lord President of the Council," which I did not at once take, however trivial I might think it, and however certain I might be of the

answer.

149. With reference to meetings of the Committee, has any meeting of the Committee ever been summoned except at the instigation of the Lord President?-No.

150. Has it not been the practice, though you do not know whether it is the right, of Members of the Committee to summon a meeting on their responsibility ?-It certainly has never been the practice, and my impression is that it would not be within their power.

151. I understood you to state that you could not tell the Committee in what way decisions were arrived at at those meetings, whether by giving opinions, or by a majority of votes, or in what other way ?-Generally speaking, when I have been present, the decision has been in this form; the Lord President would say, "I think we are all agreed," or would use some form of words of that kind.

152. Can you state in what way the decision was arrived at; for instance, upon what I may describe as Miss Burdett-Coutts's Minute; how was it settled, and by whom was it settled ?-The Minute was in type, I should think for six or seven weeks, and was constantly being altered and under consideration with the Vice President, with the Lord President, and in my own hands, under their instructions. When it was in the shape with which the Lord President and the Vice President were finally satisfied, a Committee was then called and the Minute was adopted.

153. Did the discussion with regard to it originate with yourself, or with the Vice Presi