511. Did he make any alteration in them? He made no alteration that I remember. I remember his making this observation, as to whether it was necessary to make them so long; and, upon my giving reasons why I thought that they were not longer than the case required, he acquiesced.

512. Did you see them put into his hands before he read them?-I received them from his hand.

513. Did you see them in a previous stage?I cannot charge my memory in what manner they went to him, but I distinctly remember receiving them from him in Bruton-street; I am clear upon that point, because there are other circumstances which recall it to my memory.

514. How long were they in his hands?-They must have been in his hands certainly for some time.

515. With reference to the conscience clause in in a circular which was issued by persons who objected to that clause, it was stated that about the year 1860 it was discovered that the Committee of Council were endeavouring to enforce upon the promoters of the Church schools what is commonly called a conscience clause, no sanction of such a change having been obtained, and no notice of it having been given; do you remember the first generation of the conscience clause in the office; the first case to which it was suggested or applied, or enforced?-I remember the class of cases out of which it arose.

516. But do you actually remember the first occasion on which it was suggested to the promoters of a school?—I do not remember the individual case.

517. You do not remember whether any notice was given generally to managers of schools, previous to its being offered to the acceptance of a manager?-There was no general notice.

518. Do you mean to say that it was considered of so little importance, that you do not remember the first instance in which it was imposed?-It arose in this manner. The building of new schools had come to be considered more keenly than it was in the earlier years of administration, when there was a very great scarcity of schools throughout the country, and when the object was to get them built with no more inquiry than was absolutely forced upon the Committee. After that state of things had passed away, and the proportion of schools to the population began to be more closely inquired into, then the question of a conscience clause, if one school only was to be built, began to be raised, and the Committee began to ask, shall we have to build a second school in this parish?

519. By the Committee, do you mean the Vice President?-I mean the Vice President, or the Lord President, whichever of them might be the officer in charge at the moment.

520. But do you not remember the occasion on which the Vice President first said to you, that a conscience clause must be offered to a particular school? In all schools except National schools a conscience clause had always been a part of their regular constitution, and it would suggest itself almost naturally, in the management of the correspondence of the office, that if there was to be one school only for a parish where the people were not of the same religious opinion, some provision should be made in this single school for the minority.

521. But it was well known that the National schools and the Roman Catholic schools were an

exception from the practice of the office in that respect; do you mean to say that you do not remember the first case in which that exception was departed from for the first time?-No; I do not remember the case.

522. Do know whether it was done on the you authority of the Lord President, or on that of the Vice President alone?-I cannot say.

523. Can you remember when the first instruction was given to you to prepare a draft of the Revised Code ?—Yes.

524. Was the draft prepared by you originally of your own accord, or were you directed by your chiefs to prepare that draft?-I was directed by my chiefs to prepare that draft.

525. By whom was that instruction given?By the Vice President.

526. How long was that before the Revised Code was laid upon the Table of the House?-I cannot recall the date, but I should think that I must have been two or three months doing it.

527. But you do not remember how long it was before it was laid on the Table of the House ?-It was laid on the Table of the House at the very earliest moment that it could be laid after its completion.

528. Was that done by you?-It was in print many weeks, and under incessant consideration by the Lord President and the Vice President before it was laid on the Table of the House.

529. Mr. Bruce.] And the Committee of Council?-And the Committee of Council.

530. Lord Robert Cecil.] Do you personally know that it was under the consideration of the Lord President?-Yes, it was under the consideration of the Lord President.

531. It was frequently revised in manuscript, was it not?-In type.

532. I mean to say that the proofs were fre quently revised?—Yes.

533. Were they ever revised by the Lord President?-In one instance, I certainly remember that they were; I remember receiving a proof from him with manuscript remarks upon it.

534. Were they revisions of his own?-They were remarks of his own.

535. And was it circulated among the Committee of Council also?—Yes.

536. Was it circulated purely and simply, or with any précis of reasons for its adoption?-With reasons for its adoption.

537. Were they circulated at the same time?— They were circulated at the same time.

538. Did any of the Committee of Council suggest any alterations?-There were many discussions about it, and many opinions pronounced.

539. Were those opinions pronounced on by other Members of the Committee?-By other Members of the Committee.

540. Was any explanatory statement of it made before it was laid upon the Table of the House of Commons?-No; in moving the estimates of that year, Mr. Lowe sketched in general terms the nature of the measure which he proposed, but at the time of laying the Minute upon the Table, there was no separate statement made.

541. And there was not a very exact conformity, was there, between his general statement and the measure as it ultimately appeared?—I think that there will be found a very great conformity if the two are compared.

542. Did they absolutely agree?-I do not think that they were in any substantial particular different.

543. Upon

543. Upon the subject of pupil-teachers, for instance?-I do not recollect at this moment the precise words which were used, but, speaking from recollection, Mr. Lowe's speech gave a sketch of the material parts of the Revised Code.

544. Do you remember the Capitation Minute of 1853 ?-Yes.

545. That was laid upon the Table of the House of Commons by Lord John Russell, was it not? Yes.

546. Did it contain a provision making an examination of the scholars in reading, writing, and arithmetic, a condition of the Capitation Grant? -Yes.

547. Were remonstrances made against that and other parts of the Minute as being too stringent? I believe that there were, but, without looking at the Minute, I cannot say for certain.

548. Was the Minute modified by your letter of instructions?-The letter of instructions, as I distinctly remember, upon that Minute, was carefully considered by Lord John Russell himself; it explained the Minute and provided for putting it into practice; but at this moment I do not recollect whether it modified any parts of

the Minute.

549. Was that letter laid upon the Table of the House? Yes, in the Minutes of the next year. The letter itself was framed at the beginning of the long vacation; it is dated the 20th of August; that was after the end of the Session.

559. Was any action taken upon that before it was laid upon the Table ?-The Capitation Grant was first put into operation in the following January, and that Minute would be laid upon the Table in the volume of 1854. It may have been laid separately at the beginning of the Session, but, without looking at the Parliamentary Proceedings, I could not tell.

551. Mr. W. E. Forster.] Referring to your answer to the Right Honourable Chairman with reference to rating, and your opinion on the subject being of great value, am I right in supposing your opinion to be that if an effort be made to supplement the present voluntary provision of schools for education by a compulsory provision in cases where schools are not furnished, that must be done by local rating?-That is my opinion.

552. Is one of your reasons for thinking so the so the belief that the present office of which you were Secretary would be unable, with advantage to the country, to undertake the management of any compulsory provision for education?-That is one reason; but my chief reason is, that you cannot safely trust a local body to spend money coming from a central body unless they are contributing a larger portion of their own money; that is the root of my objection.

553. But, supposing that you were to go on with your present system of spending the money of the Central Board by means of supervision by central inspectors, would you not be able to extend that system to compulsory provision of schools as well as to the system of voluntary schools? Supposing that the schools in those destitute districts depended directly upon the central Government, you would be met by the religious difficulty in almost its most insuperable form. The Normal school which was projected in 1839 to be maintained by the Government had to be abandoned on that very ground; the moment that the Government attempts to create any school whatever, the question arises, of what religion shall that school be?

554. Do you think that in the case of any establishment of a system of local organisation, it would be advisable that the present office should continue to grant money in aid of funds which were raised by that local organisation?-Yes, I think it would be.

555. Would you consider that it would be advisable that the present rule should remain in force, that the parents should contribute?—Yes.

556. In answering a question of the Right Honourable Chairman with regard to the conscience clause, you stated that there was a conscience clause of some sort in force in many schools which were not National schools, such as Wesleyan, Jewish, and other schools; will you describe to the Committee what that clause is?— The model deeds under which schools in connection with those various bodies are built are given in extenso in the House of Commons Paper, No. 192, in the Session of 1858. In the Wesleyan schools, and by the terms of the British and Foreign Schools Society, the religious instruction is on this footing scriptural instruction is given to all the children in the school, but they are expressly exempted from being taught any catechism, or from being made to attend compulsorily any place of worship on Sundays, against the wish of their parents. The terms in which that clause is worded vary somewhat in the different precedents, but that is in effect the substance of it.

557. Have you had any case in which you have given building grants to schools not conhave had reason to suppose that such schools nected with the Church of England where you would monopolise the provision for education to the district around?- There may have been cases of British schools in Wales, but I cannot call to mind any individual case at this moment where a British school was built of such a size as hardly to leave room for a National school. I think that it would scarcely ever happen in England that the Dissenters would be in such numbers that any school built for people who were not members of the Church of England would exclude a Church of England school.

558. But in all such cases would there not be a provision that any Church of England child should not have a dissenting education enforced upon it?-Under any of those deeds that would be so.

559. From your experience in the working of this office, and from your general knowledge of education throughout the country, have you any objection to state whether you think that the wants of education will ever be met in the country without some compulsory provision by the State for establishing schools?-I think that it is a question of time. I have no doubt that if everything goes on as it is now going on, in 50 years hence the want will be overtaken by the action of society alone; but if adequate provision, even within the life of the present adult generation, is to be made, I think that it must be made by the State.

560. And if it be made by the State, do you think that it must be by some system of local rating?—I think so, if it is to be done on sound principles.

561. Mr. Thompson.] A good deal has been said on the subject of correspondence, can you tell the Committee what the amount of correspondence is which is carried on at your office?— It is very large; I have taken from the register

of 1864 these numbers: we received during that year, without counting enclosures of one sort or another, 66,773 documents, and there were dispatched, of one sort or another, 94,667; a great part of those were no doubt purely formal matters, such as dispatches of money and examination papers at examinations numerously attended; but of correspondence strictly so called we received upwards of 51,000 letters, and we dispatched upwards of 75,000 letters.

562. Was it not therefore physically impossible that could give your personal attention to the whole of them?-It was physically impossible.

you

563. As I understand, the routine of the office is this, that a certain number of examiners receive the letters, open them, and retain, to be answered by themselves, that portion which are strictly routine letters ?-Those officers write upon every letter one of two things, either what they think should be the answer to it, or the assistant secretary's name, with any observations or suggestions, or references, which they may like to make. If they have minuted what they think should be the answer to a letter, then that letter so minuted goes to clerks, who make a fair draft of the minuted answer. The original letter and the fair draft go to the assistant secretary, and he probably could tell from the fair draft itself whether it was anything as to which he need do more than sign his name, but he always has the letter before him to look at. In that way every letter minuted by the examiners is seen by a higher officer.

564. There is a certain amount of limited discretion which the examiners have in the first instance? Yes.

565. Of the number of letters received are a certain portion referred back to the under secretary? They all come to him to sign.

566. But, of course, a great number of them could not receive his personal attention? They

could not.

567. Does not he again exercise a discretion as to what number he should forward to you?

-Yes.

568. And are considerable numbers dealt with by the assistant secretary alone?—Yes.

569. Do you again exercise a further discretion with regard to those sent to you as to whether you should answer them without reference to the Vice President, or whether you should send them to him?--Yes.

570. In all cases when any point which is altogether new is mooted in a letter, do you take the instruction of the Vice President upon it, unless it be so trifling a matter that you do not consider it deserving of his attention ?-Yes.

571. If any change should be made in the constitution of the Committee of Council, do you consider that that would alter in any way the necessity for a large discretion on the part of the Secretary in answering letters or referring them to the Committee?I think that the permanent officer, whoever he was, or a staff of permanent officers, must exercise a very large discretion in the dispatch of so voluminous a correspondence.

572. You have stated that there are no rules regulating the discretion of the Secretary; is not the practical rule this, that if, in using your discretion, you were to send too much detail to the Vice President, or were not to consult him sufficiently, you would receive instructions from

him which would act as practical rules to you for the future?-Yes, undoubtedly.

573. If the Secretary were not to have that discretion, would it not, in fact, be making the Vice President into a Secretary, and the Secretary into little more than a clerk?-Yes, it would have that effect.

574. Is not that discretion of course higher than the discretion exercised by the under secretary, which again is superior to that which is exercised by the examiner ?—Yes.

575. A good deal of reference has been made to the heading of the letters at present with the use of the form, "My Lords; " correspondents in the country being unable to discover whether, in the case of any complaints or application for variation of the terms of a grant made to them, the subject has been considered by you alone, or by the Vice President, or by the Committee of Council; that is so, is it not? -Yes.

576. If any change were made in the heading which enabled correspondents in the country to know exactly the authority by whom their cases had been decided, looking at the number of individual schools with which the office is in communication, and at the great number of instances in which managers think that they are entitled to a larger grant than they receive, do you conceive that the number of correspondents requiring a reference to the Vice President would be such as to make it almost impossible for the Vice President to carry on the duties of his office?-I have no doubt that he would find himself involved in a very inconvenient mass of detail. The difference between the Secretary and the Vice President is very much like that between a police magistrate and a Judge of the Superior Courts. Many of the cases are very trifling in results, perhaps involving only the question whether a pupil-teacher should be paid 10. or 12 l. a year, but requiring an hour's work in looking at the various records and dates which may be referred to.

577. Mr. Adderley.] Is it your opinion that there could be any reduction in the number of inspectors by the denominational system?-In Scotland, I think, that that might be so, because the distinctions there do not really affect the character of the schools; but in England, I think, it would be very difficult.

578. Do you think that in England there might be some economy by the same inspectors inspecting schools under your Department, and also inspecting workhouse schools, industrial schools, factory schools, and so on?--I think that those schools which are necessarily connected with some special Department, and for which that special Department stands responsible to Parliament, and in relation to which that Department alone can exercise control, are better inspected by its own officers only.

579. Chairman.] You have stated, in answer to a question, that the office received upwards of 66,000 letters in the year 1864; did not that mass of correspondence come to your office under the operation of the Revised Code?-Under the coincidence of the old Code and the Revised Code.

580. The Revised Code being then in action? -Yes.

581. Are the Committee to infer from that that the Revised Code has had no effect in diminishing the correspondence of the office, or

was

was that correspondence greater in 1863 and the previous years?-When the Revised Code is alone in operation, it will, I think, inevitably have a tendency to diminish the correspondence for the same number of schools; but at present, under certain articles in the Revised Code, questions are incidentally arising with regard to the pupil teachers who were apprenticed under the Code of 1860, and we are obliged as yet to take

into consideration a very great part of the old system, and of the questions which arose upon it.

582. In fact, at this time, then, the Revised Code has not had the effect of diminishing your correspondence ?-So far as the Revised Code can be separated from the old Code, I think it does diminish our correspondence. We have one payment to deal with in every school, instead of seven or eight.

583. Chairman.] You resigned, last year, the office of Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, did you not?—Yes. 584. For how long a period did you hold that office?-From some time in June 1859, till, I think, the 20th of April 1864; that is five years all but about two months.

585. During the whole of that period, did you serve with Lord Granville as Lord President? -Yes.

586. Will you be so good as to explain to the Committee what was the system of business in your office, as between yourself and the Lord President?-First, I must state, I suppose, what was my own business. There was a particular department of the business of the office as to which the practice was that it should be transacted by the Vice President, namely, the sanctioning of the money granted for building or repairing new schools. Then there was besides that, anything of any importance that occurred in the management of the office, either internally or externally; and any question arising out of correspondence on the annual grants to schools, or on any subject indeed on any subject indeed which the Secretary considered of sufficient importance to consult the Vice President upon. Those may be described as being the duties, speaking roughly, of the Vice President. Then, as regards the Lord President, my duty, I considered, was to bring before him any of those matters brought before me which appeared to me to be of sufficient consequence to deserve his attention; or I brought before him any case, which was very rarely, in which the Secretary did not agree with me in opinion, and anything that was likely to be mentioned in Parliament, or which concerned the general policy of the office. It was my duty to bring before the Lord President, and take his opinion upon those subjects. In fact, the practice of the office may be described as a succession of sieves, getting larger and larger; I was the last sieve, and what did not pass through that was reserved for the consideration of the Lord President.

587. Mr. Lingen was asked in his examination on the last day of the meeting of the Committee this question: "What education business is actually conducted by the Vice President, without reference to the Lord President?" To which he replied, "I should say that nine-tenths of all the education business with us is conducted by him." Would you from your experience confirm that statement ?-I could not state the precise ratio which business conducted by the Vice President bears to that referred to the President, nor do I suppose that Mr. Lingen would wish to be bound very exactly by that. Of course it varies at different times; for instance, before the Royal

R. W. W.

Lingen, Esq.

24 March
1865.

Commissioners reported, that is, before March Right Hon. 1861, we had a very easy life of it, and I should R. Lowe, M.P. say that the Lord President did not see a great deal of the work; from that time we have had rather a lively time of it, and the Lord President of course saw a good deal more of the work; . then the thing got settled again, and then again the Lord President saw less of the work. I may say with the greatest confidence that I have never been reproved by the Lord President for not having brought before him anything that was not of sufficient importance, and I am able to state that things worked quite smoothly between him and myself.

588. I merely wish to know, for the information of the Committee, whether a very large proportion of the work of the office was conducted by you, and not by the Lord President ?-Certainly.

589. Can you tell the Committee how frequently the Lord President has been in the habit of giving attention at his office to education business?-The Lord President came office almost every day in the week, I think, and I always found him ready to attend to education business whenever it was brought before him, but there was not always business from me for him to see on education matters. The great mass of the business is of a rather small and detailed character.

590. If I understand rightly your explanation, it would amount to this; that there was no particular portion of the business of the Education Department which devolved as a matter of course upon the Lord President, but that he only acted when you thought it desirable to refer to him any particular question; is that so?-That is so; I or the Secretary.

591. Did occasions very frequently occur on which you thought it desirable to have the opinion of the Lord President? It just depended, as I said before, upon the period referred to. When we were in smooth water it did not very frequently occur; when troublesome times arose it occurred more frequently; but I made it a rule always to refer to him when anything arose which appeared to be of a difficult or responsible nature, and I always found him most willing to attend to it.

592. I gather from your answer that what you call "smooth water" existed over the greater portion of your Vice Presidency, and therefore that the occasions upon which you considered it necessary to refer to the Lord President did not occur very frequently?-The smooth water, I am sorry to say, did not exist over the greater portion of my Vice Presidency.

593. Do you mean that the water continued to be troubled during the last three years?-Certainly, more or less; not so much so as regarded the office during the last year, but a little more perhaps as regards myself.

24 March 1865.

Right Hon. 594. Supposing you had been sole Minister inR.Lowe, M.P. stead of the Vice President, was there anything in the nature of the questions which you did from time to time refer to the Lord President which you would have had any difficulty or hesitation in deciding yourself?-I could have decided them all, but I do not think that I could have decided them better, or even so well, than the Lord President, who was, I may say, one of the shrewdest and pleasantest men to act with whom I ever met; no one could be more so.

595. Without entering into the personal qualifications of the Lord President, was there anything in the nature of the questions which you referred to him that a man of competent business talents could not have decided?—I think not.

596. Will you explain to the Committee what was the system of business while you were Vice President, as between yourself and the other members of the Committee of Council?-The interference of the Committee of Council, according to my experience, was never invoked, except for purely legislative purposes, when, for instance, new Minutes had to be laid before it. I cannot charge my memory with any instance where a merely administrative matter was brought before it, unless it were with regard to some case which we found in the office when we came there. My predecessor, the Right Honourable Member for North Staffordshire, will know more than I do about the case of the Llanelly school. I have some idea of something of that kind being brought before the Committee of Council, but it was five years ago, and I am not quite clear about it; as a general rule, it is purely as a legislative body

that the Committee of Council act.

597. I understand your answer to be, that as a rule the Committee of Council are convened and consulted when Minutes are to be issued?Yes.

598. Do you mean that no Minutes are ever issued without the Committee of Council being consulted?-I think not. I an not, of course, so conversant with the practice of the office as Mr. Lingen is, but I am not aware of any, and most assuredly it has not been so in later times.

599. I presume that upon no occasions would the Committee of Council be convened and consulted upon the Minute without your being both aware of the fact, and indeed a party to their being convened?-I am not aware that it ever was; but I will not say that, in my absence, the Lord President never told the Secretary to do something of the kind.

600. Did it rest with the Lord President to convene the Committee, or were you in the habit of doing so?-It rested entirely with the Lord President to convene the Committee, but I have suggested to the Lord President, when I thought it desirable, that the Committee should be convened.

601. Did you invariably attend the Committee?-Always, I think.

602. The Secretary, it appears, did not do so invariably?--He attended very often; I cannot say that he did always, but my impression would be, that in almost all cases he did.

603. Was there any record, beyond the fact of a Minute being adopted, of the proceedings of the Committee of Council?-I am not aware that there was, except the adoption of the Minute; I never saw any note of it.

604. Did the Committee meet often ?--No; very seldom.

605. During the preparation of the Revised Code it met more frequently than at any other time, did it not?-I cannot tell that, but I think not. When we had considered it as much as we could, I rather think it was circulated among the Members, and then there was a meeting to consider it as a whole. I remember preparing a Minute myself to explain it, and to give reasons for it, for the use of the Committee of Council.

606. Those Minutes, for the passing of which the Committee was convened, usually related, did they not, to questions of detail connected with the administration of the Department? Even the Revised Code gether so, I think. appears to me to be a question of administrative detail; I employ the word in that sense.

Alto

607. That being the case, should you be of opinion that statesmen, whose time and attention were occupied with the administration of other Departments, would be as competent judges on those details as you would yourself be, or as anyone else would be whose time and attention were constantly devoted to the affairs of that Department?-They would not be so competent judges of details; of course that would be impossible, but many of them were better judges of questions of general policy, because those details, although they were details, involved very important questions.

608. But still it was for details, was it not, that they were convened to judge?-It was; the details were laid before them, but of course it was necessary to explain to them what those details involved, and how those details worked; and then I think it was rather upon the principles which were involved in those details than upon the precise manner in which they should be carried out that their assistance was valuable to the Department.

609. Do you think that there is anything in the nature of the business which is transacted at your office which makes it desirable that the office should be conducted on principles which are so widely different from those which prevail in other Departments?-I was not aware that the principles were so widely different.

610. Do you know any other Department in which a Board of that sort is convened to judge and arrive at decisions?-There are Boards in other Departments, but certainly in other Departments the Board is set aside, and the legislative power of the Board has been usurped by the heads of the Department; I do not know of any defect of that kind in the Committee of Council.

611. But, whether that is a usurpation or not, is it not the fact that a great difference exists between the practice of that office and of other offices? Yes, a difference exists; for instance, with regard to the Lords of the Treasury, according to the constitution of the Board they are a power, but the power has been usurped by the Secretary, and the Lords of the Treasury are set aside.

612. But is there, in your judgment, any good reason for conducting the business of the Education Office in so different a manner from that in which the business of other Departments is conducted?-I do not admit that it is different from ordinary Departments.

613. Do you not admit that, in this case, a Board