As a matter of practice, if a letter comes addressed to the Lord President, or to the Vice President, by the style of their office and not by their private name, and if it had all the semblance and appearance of a public letter, would that letter be opened by you as Secretary, or would it go to the officer to whom it is directed?-I should never think of opening it.

433. You stated to the Committee that a large proportion of the correspondence is disposed of by persons in the office below yourself, and that only a portion of it comes to you, and that from you a portion goes to the Vice President; is any synopsis of the daily correspondence sent to the Vice President; or does it in any way come within his knowledge?-Not necessarily; but a synopsis of the correspondence exists. Every letter, as soon as it is received in the office, is opened by the clerks; a brief memorandum is made upon it, and it is registered. You could, on any day, tell from the books what letters had been received, from whom they had been received, and upon what subject they had been written. As soon as the letters have been registered, they proceed to the officers who are to prepare the answers for them. The register, or day book, which is kept in order of time, is abstracted into ledgers, under each case of letters received and letters dispatched. All the correspondence is so recorded; but the daily register, which is a synopsis of the whole, has never been called for by the Lord President, or by the Vice President, as a rule, unless they had some special reason to look at the entry about some particular letter, but it is always there if they wish to see it.

434. Then I understand that the whole of the correspondence of each day is recorded in that letter book?—Yes.

435. And that letter book may or may not be called for by the Vice President, but if it be not called for by him, it never goes to him; is that so?-That is so.

436. Therefore, I presume that the practical result is this, that a very large proportion of the business of each day is never brought within the knowledge of the Vice President at all?-That

is so.

R. W. W.

443. When you have been sent for, have you always remained until the termination of the Lingen, Esq. meeting?-I think I almost always have done so; perhaps I may, in some circumstances, have exercised my own discretion as to remaining to the end of the meeting.

444. That would be an act of your own?That would be an act of my own.

some

445. In answer to questions which were put to you on Tuesday last, with reference to the conscience clause, you alluded to that limit of 150 children in any parish which is stated in the correspondence between your Department and the National Society; was that line of 150 ever thought of before that correspondence took place?-It was thought of in this way: years ago a good deal of controversy arose as to the size of school rooms, and the opinions of some experienced persons were taken on the subject. The Dean of Hereford, and Mr. Best, of Abbot's Ann, and some other persons whose experience was thought valuable, expressed an opinion that 150 children were quite as many as ought to be placed, in a single department, under the responsibility of a single teacher. When, therefore, the object was to define a small school, 150 was taken as the limit, which was borrowed from that previous discussion.

446. Do I understand you to say that that limit was taken some years ago, and with reference to a different question?-It was taken some years ago with reference to a different question.

447. Was that limit of 150 ever adopted, with reference to the conscience clause, previously to that letter being written to the National Society?

I do not think that it was ever adopted in any sense that it amounts to a rule previously to that correspondence with the National Society. The general rule has been this: if the parish admits of one school only; then, the question of a conscience clause may arise. The National Society asked what sort of a parish it was which admitted of one school only; and, in answer to that question, the reply was, that it was a parish which does not require more than 150 children to be placed under instruction.

448. Is that rule with regard to the 150, as applied to the conscience clause at present in existence, in any shape excepting on the face of that letter?-No. 449. Is there written rule or record in the any Education Office with reference to the conscience clause?-The conscience clause occurs in every model deed, except those of National schools, the Episcopal schools in Scotland, which are held upon nearly identical trusts, and Roman Catholic schools; it occurs in all the deeds for British schools, for Wesleyan schools, for Free Church schools in Scotland, and for Jewish schools; all. those have a conscience clause of one sort or another, and to that extent a conscience clause exists in the records of the office; but, as far as National schools go, it only exists in such correspondence as may have arisen from time to time about it. (The Witness, on recollection, added): There is mention of the practice of a conscience clause in a Minute of April 1847, relating to Wesleyan schools, where the Committee of Council gave an answer as to the circumstances under which they might feel themselves bound to aid in building a school for a very small number of Wesleyan children.

450. How long has the practice existed of refusing building grants in certain cases unless a

24 March 1865.

R. W. W. conscience clause was inserted?-Within the last Lingen, Esq. four or five years, I think. 24 March 1865,

451. The conscience clause has never been made the subject of a Minute, has it ?-Not in National schools.

452. Can you inform the Committee why that has not been done?-I presume that it must have been for the same reason which has dictated many other parts of the present system, namely, that of taking the education of the country as it exists, and making the best of it. It was not considered likely that a negotiation on the subject would be successful.

453. Is it your opinion that the admission or non-admission of the conscience clause was not a question of sufficient importance to be made the subject of a Minute?-I think that it is a most important question.

454. Have there not been many subjects of far less importance which have been comprised in

Minutes?-Yes.

455. Was it not a subject upon which it might be not only fair but right to take the opinion of Parliament ?-Yes, but I should like to add this to my last answer, that the correspondence with the National Society since 1860 was entered into (as appears on the face of it) for the purpose of arriving at a Minute which might meet with the concurrence of the National Society.

456. Are the Committee to understand from the course which has been taken that the Committee of Council or the authorities at the Education Department thought it right to place the conscience clause on the same footing as one of their instructions or supplementary rules ?-I think not.

457. It has been practically upon the same footing, has it not?-I think not.

458. Mr. Bruce.] I understand from your answer, that, in your opinion, the conscience clause has not been inserted as a Minute, in con

sequence of the hope entertained by the Committee of Council that they might induce the National Society to accept, without having it forced upon it, as it were, in the form of a Minute; is that so?-I meant that the Committee of Council hope to arrive at such an understanding with the National Society, that the result might be embodied in a Minute which would meet with no opposition.

459. Are you able, speaking from memory, to inform the Committee of the number of schools

with which the Department corresponds?-I have not the number of schools with me; but, with reference to some questions which were asked me on Tuesday, I have obtained the number of letters which were received or dispatched from the office during the year 1864. (Mr. Bruce handed a paper to the Witness.) In 1864, I find that the total number of elementary day schools visited by Her Majesty's Inspectors was 7,891, and of school rooms under separate teachers the number visited was 11,818, but that number would not represent the whole of the correspondence, because those are only the schools inspected.

460. At any rate, you corresponded with 7,891 schools?-Yes.

461. Must there not, therefore, necessarily be an immense amount of repetition of the subjects in the correspondence with so many schools?— A very large amount of that correspondence is reduced to print for the sake of dispatch. We should require three or four times as many clerks

as we have, if one-half of the correspondence had to be conducted in manuscript.

462. In fact, the per-centage of cases in which the exercise of anything like particular discretion is required, is very small, is it not?-Yes.

463. And the per-centage of cases in which anything like doubt as to the decision would arise is almost smaller still, is it not?-After a Minute has been a certain time in operation, that is quite so; but under every new Minute or rule the cases at first suggest more doubt.

464. Are the cases which are perfectly clear answered at once by the examiner or the assistant secretaries? - The answer is minuted by the examiner, if he feels no sort of doubt upon it. The letter which is answered, and a fair copy of the answer minuted, come to the assistant secretary to be signed. Everything which quits the office in the shape of a letter, requiring signature, goes either through the hands of one of the assistant secretaries or through my own.

465. Have you any reason to doubt that every letter containing a point of doubt or difficulty which ought to be submitted to you does reach you?-No, I have very little doubt of it.

466. Mr. Howes.] Are you aware of the difficulties which arose in the interpretation of Article 51 B, in the Revised Code ?-Yes.

467. As soon as those difficulties arose, did you at once consult with the then Vice President?-The article itself was the subject of frequent consultation, not only with the Vice President, but with the Lord President; and, after it had been adopted as part of the Code, long and frequent consideration was given to the cases which arose under it by Mr. Lowe himself.

268. Are the Committee to understand that that took place with reference to each case as it arose?-With reference to each of the earlier cases, beyond all doubt; and I think that there would scarcely be a single case under that article in which, before conclusion, some part of the correspondence would not have been found to have gone before the Vice President.

469. Then, I presume, that it would be impossible that any case of that kind would have been decided by any of the subordinate officers?Quite impossible, unless it was absolutely identical with another case which had been decided by superior authority.

470. May the Committee assume that some cases were decided by yourself without reference to the Vice President, if you considered them to stand upon a similar footing to cases which had already been decided? If I had felt perfectly certain of that point, I might have decided them; but my own impression is that, at some point or other, every one of those cases has been before the Vice President. I should not like to commit

myself to that statement absolutely, but I believe that it very nearly represents the fact.

471. The Right Honourable Chairman has asked you a question with reference to the local organisation; you have expressed an opinion that the power of rating ought to be incidental to the local body, whatever it may be called; and not that there should be necessarily a system of rating, do you mean that the power of rating need not always be put in force?-I think that the power of rating need not always be exercised.

472. Can you give your reasons, shortly why you consider that a power of rating is absolutely necessary? What strikes me as the great difficulty in administering the present system is this,

that

that it has, strictly, no local character; we are in communication with each school individually, but if we were asked for an account of the education in any particular county, or in any particular union, we have no information of that kind, authentic in character, that we could submit to Parliament, except by putting together the reports which we may have received from certain individual schools; nor have we any officer to whom we could entrust an inquiry of that kind. All our inspectors are denominational inspectors, who visit schools of particular classes, but who have nothing to do with the circuit, strictly speaking, within which those schools are comprised. The great want in the way of local organisation, which strikes me, is this, that there is no responsible person to whom the Government can say, "In this union, or in this parish, or in this county (whatever may be the circumscripton) there is a want of schools, and it ought to be supplied." I think that if you had somebody or other bound to answer that demand, the Government might go on to address them in this language: "If, before the end of (say) two years, an inspector is sent down and the same report has to be made, the neighbourhood will be compelled to provide better for the education of its children;" and in the last resort, compulsion means the power of rating. But, in the meantime, if there was anything like what is going on now, such as voluntary subscriptions, or, where wages are good, good school fees; or, we might dispense with subscriptions where there are good endowments, or plenty of good private adventure schools, if, in any way whatever, at the end of two years that neighbourhood showed itself to be well provided with schools, I think it might very well be left alone as to means; but, if none of those conditions were fulfilled, then, in the last resort, I think you want compulsory rating.

473. Might not a compulsory power exist without that power of rating in the last instance? -I do not think that it would work well.

474. Mr. Walter.] In what way, and through what officers or agents, are the Committee to understand that you would work any system of local organisation in connection with the education system?-Supposing that a local board, of whatever character, were in existence, then I think that the relation with it might be very much the same as that which exists between the Poor Law Board and Boards of Guardians.

475. What control should you propose that the Central Board should exercise over the local board with reference to the discipline of the school? I do not think it would be at all necessary to exercise any more control than is now exercised over the discipline of the schools.

476. Do you consider that it would be necessary to exercise as much control?-I do not think that it would be necessary to exercise so frequent or so minute an inspection of the schools.

477. But do you contemplate any alteration in the main principles of the Revised Code, with reference to the discipline and management of schools as to the selection of masters?-No.

478. You would not propose to give the local board any power to judge for themselves as to the kind of masters whom they would choose to employ ?-I, myself, adhere to the view of requiring a certificated master under any system. If Government were put out of the question altogether, I would require certificated masters.

479. Would you propose in the event of a

24 March

1865.

local board being created, to compel them to R. W. W. comply with such regulations as the Educational Lingen, Esq. Department might lay down with regard to the appointment of certificated masters?-Supposing any measure of this kind were adopted, it would be absolutely necessary that its provisions should be embodied in an Act of Parliament, and I should like to see this provision in the Act of Parliament; that a man should not hold the office of teacher in any school that was publicly aided, without having obtained something in the nature of a diploma. I do not say from the Committee of Council necessarily, but a diploma founded on some evidence of his professional skill.

480. In what way then would the local board render any further assistance to the Central Department, other than is rendered now, by the managers of schools; how far would it co-operate with it? I think that the plan sketched out in the Report of the Royal Commissioners, might easily be made to operate; that if this local board was responsible in the last resort for any given district being properly supplied with schools, and if the State contributed only some moderate subvention, something less than onehalf (whether it should be one-fourth, or onethird, or at whatever rate it should be fixed, might be a matter of subsequent arrangement, so long as the State did not contribute the bulk of the expenditure), then I think it would be quite sufficient, if the State had the power of sending down from time to time an inspector; but the local officer who conducted the Revised Code examination, or whatever examination might be thought preferable to it, might be appointed by the local board.

481. Then, you would not be particular by what means the funds were raised for the support of those schools so long as a sufficient sum was forthcoming ?-And sufficient schools.

482. Would not the fact that a great number of the small rural schools are private property, cause some difficulty in the application of the system of public rating, because, I presume, it would be necessary, if the power of levying rates were exercised, that the schools should be in the hands of trustees or of some public body?--There is a striking passage at page 317 in the Report of the Royal Commissioners, who speak of the schools for the rural poor on private property. I think the necessity for rating would very seldom arise, in cases where rural schools already exist on private property.

483. In the course of your examination on Tuesday some questions were asked with regard to the limitation of the general rules of the Revised Code with respect to grants by supplementary rules, and I put one or two questions with the view of ascertaining how far those supplementary rules limited the general rule with regard to building grants; can you explain to the Committee what are the precise rules that are applied to building grants as distinguished from the Minutes?-The shortest way in which I could do that would be to submit the eight printed forms which really contain the stages of a building grant, the original entertaining of the application, according to the local circumstances, the extent, title, and conveyance in trust, of the land, and the nature of the buildings.

484. There is a rule laid down in the Minute, and the first condition is Condition A:- "That there is a sufficient population of the labouring

495. My question was as to the ecclesiastical division, and not merely the geographical divisions? The reference would not, I suppose, be confined to the ecclesiastical division, if there was school accommodation close at hand, although beyond it; but, as a rule, whenever there is a new district made and a church built, the reason for the church determines pretty much the reason for the school. It very rarely happens that the ecclesiastical and geographical divisions do not, in the main, coincide.

496. Here is a case of an ecclesiastical division, with a population of more than 1,500, without any school whatever, and in which a grant has been refused on the ground that in another district over which the Commissioners had no control there is a school in which accommodation might be found, although that school is of a character so inferior that the children's parents might not wish to send them there?-On the face of that document there are two schools within a quarter of a mile of the place, which between them will contain 660 scholars, and which do contain 333. 497. The one being a Baptist school, to which of course the Church of England children would not go, and the other being a National school over which neither the clergyman nor the parishioners have any control whatever, and to which they would not advise the children to be sent; did this decision come under your personal observation?-Evidently this letter came under my notice, because I have signed it; but, looking at the date of it, and at the character of the case, in all probability, if the papers were produced, this letter would be found to be in the writing of the private secretary of the Vice President, and that it was dictated by the Vice President, and merely came to me to authenticate it by my signature as a document to leave the office. Looking at the date and the character of that letter, that is what I believe to be the case.

498. Mr. Bruce.] Does it not appear upon the very face of the document that within a quarter of a mile of the proposed school there is room for 327 children more than now attend the schools? -The number that the present schools would hold is 660, and they are attended by 333.

pro

499. Within a quarter of a mile of the posed school; that distance is mentioned, is it not? Yes.

500. Lord Robert Cecil.] Following up a question put in the last examination, you were not certain whether it was yourself solely or the Vice President who was responsible for the decision. made upon that case?-I entertain not the slightest doubt in my own mind that this was the Vice President's decision; but, not recollecting the case individually, and not having the papers before me, I had rather not make a statement upon it before seeing the papers.

501. Have you in the office always a record by which you are able to tell whether a subordinate officer, or yourself, or the Vice President, have been responsible for the decision in each case? -Yes, always.

502. With respect to inspectors, if an inspector

"I find that the case passed through my hands only. The letter was written on 8th October 1864, when neither the Vice nor Lord President were in town. I did not send it down into the country, because I had not the slightest doubt about the answer to be given. When I spoke of the 'date' (497), I was thinking not of the month, but of the year (1864).” .

requires leave, who decides whether he shall have R. W. W leave or not?—If it was for any trifling time, such Lingen, Esq. as three or four days, and if the facts appeared in his diary, I should probably pass it myself; but if it was for anything like a fortnight, or in the nature of sick leave, I should always take that to the Lord President.

503. And anything in the nature of a rebuke to inspectors is also taken to the Lord President; for instance, if you called an inspector's attention to the fact that he had been very often ill during his inspectorship, and had required frequent leave, who would be responsible for such an act as that; would it be yourself, or the Vice President, or the Lord President?-I think I should always have brought a letter of that kind under the Lord President's notice.

504. But there is no rule in the office which makes you certain upon that point; it is merely a matter of your own private discretion, and of the rules which you prescribe to yourself?-. There are not, and never have been, rules, printed or written, for the guidance of the Secre

tary.

505. In short, all those questions of your discretion as to what matters you would refer to the Lord President or the Vice President must be judged according to the rules which you have prescribed to yourself for your own guidance, and not according to rules printed or recorded in the office? There are no rules printed or recorded in the office. Of course, I found a certain practice existing when I first came to the office; and in almost every office, I think, you would find that it is rather an official tradition than any printed rules which guides the permanent officers.

506. Are the inspectors in immediate communication with the chief of the office?—Not necessarily; that is to say, any inspector who wrote to the office would ordinarily address the Secretary; but it is always open to any inspector to write directly to the chiefs of the office, and many of them from time to time do so.

507. Would a letter to the Secretary be invariably taken to the chiefs?-If an inspector said, "I wish this letter to be taken to the Lord President," I can state in the most positive manner that I have always taken it to him. Supposing that he had expressed no such wish, I should have dealt with the inspector's letter as with that of any other correspondent, at discretion.

508. With regard to the very voluminous instructions printed in the volumes for 1862 and 1863, and issued in September 1862, which are called, "Instructions to Her Majesty's Inspectors of Schools, upon the Administration of the Revised Code," will you state whether you have made any of them upon your own authority ?-I can answer that question very simply, by stating, that those instructions were considered paragraph by paragraph by the Vice President, and I remember most distinctly receiving them from the hands of the Lord President after he had read

them.

509. Did he make any observation upon them? -He made very much the same observation upon them as the Noble Lord has made now, namely, that they were very voluminous.

510. Had he made any note in the margin to indicate that he had read them?-I am sure that he had read them.

24 March 1865.