in the Home Office a very large proportion, perhaps nine-tenths of the letters, are written in the name of the Secretary of State for the time being, and never seen by him?-I have been told so by persons who had every means of knowing.

355. And that it may be very possible that in the country the understanding may be by the various persons to whom they are addressed, that those letters having been written in his name had been seen by him?--There must be the same tendency to think so as with regard to the letters which are in the name of the Committee of Council.

356. Do you see any sufficient reason for discontinuing the practice?-I do not believe my self that it is possible to discontinue it, in the mass of business which goes through the public offices.

357. With respect to the Minutes, may it not be laid down generally that every Minute which is brought before the Committee of Council has been the subject of frequent discussion between the Lord President, the Vice President, and the Secretary?-Yes, certainly.

358. And therefore, does not that Minute represent the matured opinion of the Lord President and the Vice President?-Yes.

359. And I understand you to state that on every question in which you feel that there is a chance that the Lord President or the Vice President may differ in opinion from yourself. you carefully submit the case to the decision of the Lord President or the Vice President?-Yes, I certainly do, to the best of my judgment.

360. And, as a matter of fact, that where the Vice President feels that the question is one of doubt or difficulty, or of great importance, he takes the opinion of the Lord President? -Yes.

361. Mr. Stirling.] When a full Committee of the Privy Council is summoned, is there any quorum necessary to the transaction of the business that comes before it ?-Three, I think, is the quorum.

362. And, supposing only the Lord President and the Vice President to attend, would the meeting be postponed until a fuller attendance could be obtained?-The action taken by the Lord President and the Vice President since 1856 has been, I think, to consider that they have the powers of the Committee of Council without necessarily summoning the Committee.

363. But there is not a quorum of three necessary at one of those meetings?-In the original appointment of the Committee of Council the only direction is, that they shall be a Committee to superintend the application of any moneys which may be provided for Her Majesty by Parliament (I think those are the words) for education, and no quorum is mentioned there; but I have been told, and I only know it in that way, that three is the quorum of a Committee of Council; there is none mentioned in the order appointing them.

364. But, supposing three not to attend, would the business which was to come before the Committee on that day be postponed ?—No.

365. Would it be decided by the Lord President and Vice President?-It would be so decided if no Committee attended.

366. Mr. Liddell.] Of what does the whole staff of your office consist, including the ordinary

clerks and inspectors?-The establishment in London consists of a Secretary (I am speaking of the permanent part now only) and two assistant secretaries; then, I think, that there are ten examiners and 54 clerks, and the estimates provide for 62 inspectors, I think.

367. Have they any assistants or clerks connected with them?-There is a certain number of inspectors' assistants; the estimates provide for, I think, 20, and 16 have been appointed.

368. You stated, in an early part of your evidence, that all annual grants, unless presenting unusual features, were signed by yourself; is that so?-As a matter of fact they are signed by the assistant secretaries; they are signed by the permanent officers of the Department.

369. Then am I right in presuming that all applications for annual grants are opened by yourself, and are for the most part dealt with by yourself?-The application for an annual grant in almost every instance merely involves these steps: a correspondent writes to say that he wishes to have his school placed under inspection, and that it should receive annual grants; in answer to that he has a schedule sent to him, of certain printed questions for him to answer, stating where the school is, its size, what is its tenure, and whether the master is certificated; supposing that all those questions are satisfac-. torily answered, then the inspector is asked in what month he can go to this school; he sends back word, we will suppose, that he can go in the month of May; and then a printed form is sent to the manager, saying that in the month of May the inspector will come to his school, and that then he will have a grant for the year then ending; the inspector goes to the school, and his report comes to the office and is examined by the examiner, pursuant to the Code. A Minute is made according to the rates prescribed by the Code of what grants the school should have, and that Minute is embodied in a letter, telling the correspondent what his grant is, and communicating to him certain observations, which the inpectors put down for the purpose, and so the application is disposed of. At any one of those stages, if the matter presented any unusual feature, it might come to me or to the Vice President, or to the Lord President; but that is the ordinary routine.

370. Supposing that an application contains an unusual feature, which I understand to be something not comprised in the general code of regulations laid down by the office, would you immediately refer such application to the inspector in whose district such application arose?

No. Supposing, for instance, that the application was for annual grants, and that the return showed that they had not a certificated master, the first answer to the correspondent would be, you are not in a state yet to get annual grants; and supposing that they answered, we cannot get a certificated master, or our master will not sit for his certificate, there would be an end for the time being of that case.

371. But supposing that there was an application for building a school, and that it was represented that from the poverty of the district, or the small number of resident proprietors and persons capable of subscribing, they could not get sufficient land to comply with your conditions, would you absolutely and at once, without any inquiry from the inspector into the circum

stances

stances of the case, refuse that grant ?-Supposing that they answered thus, "We cannot possibly build our school under the rate of aid offered by the Code;" that would bring the case to an end, and there would be no further reference upon it.

372. With regard to the subject of Minutes, you state that all drafts of Minutes are drawn by the Secretary ?-Yes, as a rule.

373. Have no drafts of Minutes ever been drawn by the Lord President or the Vice President? Certain Minutes were passed in 1853, which were not drawn by me, those relating to capitation grants.

374. But is it not an exception to the rule, when they are drawn by the heads of the office? As a rule they are drawn by the Secretary. 375. You mean that they are drawn under instructions either from the Vice President or the Lord President, as the case may be?-Yes.

376. Are those instructions conveyed to you in writing or verbally?—They are almost always conveyed to me verbally.

377. Does not your office differ in toto in that main particular from the course of business which is pursued in any other public office?—The question of whether instructions should be given verbally or in writing, rests entirely with the head of the office. Some Lords President have much more frequently given me orders in writing than others.

378. With regard to the Colonial Office, is it not the fact that when any important communication on a matter of policy or of instructions to a Governor issue from that Department cf the State, they are invariably initiated, and almost invariably written in the handwriting of the head of the Department, or at any rate, failing him, by either the Parliamentary or the permanent Secretary ?-If you take in the Parliamentary and permanent Secretary, the practice would be the same as at the Committee of Council.

379. If it is what may be termed a matter of general importance, does it not in those cases emanate from the head of the Department itself? -The actual statement, "There ought to be a Minute on this subject," would come in every instance from the Lord President.

380 To go to facts, who initiated the Revised Code? The Royal Commissioners of 1858, I suppose, were the first cause of it.

381. That was the groundwork for the great step that was then taken; but who framed the Revised Code ?-I did.

382. Did you frame it under instructions from the Lord President?-The direct instructions that came to me were from the Vice President.

383. Are you of your own knowledge able to state whether he acted under the instructions of the Lord President?-There was a repeated and continued discussion after that Report of the Royal Education Commissioners, as to what should be done upon it; and when the decision had been arrived at that something in the nature of the Revised Code should be prepared, concerning which I had general instructions, putting me in possession of what were the views of my superiors, I drew it just as, if I had remained at my old profession, I might have drawn a man's will or his marriage settlement.

384. When it was framed by yourself, was a Committee of Council convened to consider it ?-Yes, several Committees.

385. Were you always present ?-Not at the whole of the meetings.

386. Then, does not it form part of your office to be always present at the meetings ?-Not unless I am sent for.

387. Supposing a remonstrance against the operation of a great change in the law comes, to whom is that remonstrance addressed?-That must entirely depend upon the writer. An ordinary official letter is addressed to the Secretary, but any one is at liberty, if he is so minded, to write direct to the Lord President or the Vice President, and many do.

388. Supposing a remonstrance comes to you, addressed by the National Society, against the operation of the Revised Code, what steps would you take?- An important paper of that kind I should acknowledge, and take it at once to the Vice President.

389. But, supposing it came only from the managers of a school, would not you feel it equally your duty to consult him?-If it came from the managers of an individual school, objecting to the Revised Code in general terms, if it were a general argumentative letter, I might or might not take it to the Vice President, according to the estimate which I formed of its importance.

390. Then it would appear from that answer that you have a very large discretionary power in dealing with these communications, to the extent of yourself judging whether or not you can answer them, or whether or not it is necessary to consult your superiors?-Yes.

391. Is your knowledge of other Departments sufficient to enable you to state whether your discretionary powers are larger than, or equal to, those possessed by other permanent secretaries in other public Departments?—I do not think that they are larger.

392. Chairman.] Are you sufficiently conversant with other Departments to answer that question? All the information which I possess on that point I have derived, more or less, from private intercourse, and therefore I do not name any one public Department. I have been asked my opinion, and that is my opinion.

393. Mr. Liddell.] With reference to the importance of the presence of the Lord President in the House of Lords, could you inform the Committee when Lord John Russell was Lord President, and was sitting in the House of Commons, who did the business in the Education Department in the House of Lords?-Without looking back to the Debates, and seeing what questions arose, I could not at this moment state by whom the Department was represented in the House of Lords at that time.

394. You stated, did you not, that it was important that the Lord President, as the head of the Education Board, should be in the House of Lords, because it constantly brought him into contact with the Bishops, how were matters settled with the Bishops when the Lord President sat in the House of Commons ?-Possibly no debate arose in the House of Lords at that time; and I think that I said, in my answer, that it was expedient, and convenient, but that I did not think it necessary.

395. Mr. Walpole.] I find that when the Vice President and the Committee of Council on Education was appointed, Sir George Grey stated this in the House of Commons, that the Committee of Council consisted of several Members

R. W. W. of the Government, and no one had any of that Lingen, Esq. individual responsibility which ought to attach to a Minister of the Crown; the importance was 21 March pointed out to the Government of centralising 1865. the responsibility as to the administration of this grant, and the superintendence of matters of education, so far as Government was concerned, in the hands of one Minister; and then he goes on to say, that the Bill authorised the appointment of a Vice President, who would be enabled to have a seat in the House of Commons, and would be the responsible Minister there in all matters connected with education, so far as the Government was concerned; taking those two passages together, I suppose that it may be considered that the appointment of the Vice President was, for these purposes, to centralise the responsibility, as to the administering of grants, to superintend generally matters of education, and to have a responsible Minister in the House of Commons who could answer questions there upon those matters; is not that a fair description of the objects of the appointment?—Yes, from those words.

396. When that appointment was made, was any Order in Council made with reference to the functions to be discharged by the Vice President, or were any written instructions given upon that point by the Lord President?-An Order in Council was passed.

397. Would there be any objection to laying that Order in Council upon the table of the Committee?-No; I have it with me.

398. Would you have the goodness to refer to the Order in Council which was then passed, and to read such portion of it as defines the functions to be discharged by the Vice President of the Committee of Council?" That for the future the establishment to be called the Education Department be placed under the Lord President of the Council, assisted by a Member of the Privy Council, who shall be the Vice President of the Committee of the said Privy Council on Education, and shall act under the direction of the Lord President, and shall act for him in his absence."

399. Then that Order in Council appears to contemplate that the Lord President, when in London, was to be the head of the Department, but that all the authority of the Department was delegated to the Vice President generally, in the Lord President's absence ?—Yes.

400. Then, in point of fact, the Vice President, in the absence of the Lord President, would appear to have a co-ordinate authority with the Lord President in all matters of Education ?— Yes.

401. Even then, if the Lord President is present in London and matters are not brought to the Lord President, the Vice President has still that co-ordinate authority ?-The Order has not defined the word "absence," and therefore I should not like to commit myself to an interpretation of it.

402. Would not the Vice President, under that Order in Council, conceive that he had full authority to act independently of the Lord President? Under certain circumstances, as in the case of his absence.

403. His absence being not confined to absence from London, what does "absence" mean?-I have no interpretation to offer of the word "absence."

404. Then in practice, as I understood from the earlier part of your examination, the Vice President does ordinarily act in all the current business, independently of the Lord President; that is to say, that he carries on the business without conferring with the Lord President?-I have really no means of knowing what conference may pass between the Lord President and the Vice President at other times, but, as far as I am concerned, and as far as I know, nine-tenths of the business of the office is conducted by the Vice President only.

405. May we take it for granted that the Lord President and the Vice President confer together upon important matters ?—Yes.

406. Is there any obligation upon the Vice President to confer with the Lord President upon any important matter which he wishes to transact? There is no order upon the subject excepting this Order in Council.

407. Now, with regard to another point, as to how far the functions of the Lord President and the Vice President are qualified by the Committee of Council; as I understand you, you are not always present at the Committee of Council, though you are the Secretary of the Committee? Not throughout its meetings.

408. When you are absent, and any decision is come to by the Committee of Council, is that the Committee of Council, or who communicates communicated to you in writing as the decision of it to you?-Unless the Committee of Council passes a Minute, which is usually in type before hand, and which would be given into my hands by the Lord President after the Committee was

over, I should have no written communication upon the subject as an ordinary rule.

409. Then the usual practice of the office is, that the Committee of Council is only convened to ratify that which the Lord President and the Vice President have prepared beforehand as the rules to be established in any particular case in matters relating to Education?-Yes.

410. Then, is that Committee of Council of any further use than as giving the sanction of Government to the matter which it is intended to do? In addition to sanctioning the Minutes which may be laid before them by the Lord President and the Vice President, they also discharge this duty, that when actual Minutes are not in question, but some point connected with education is engaging the public attention, they are very often called together to consult and advise upon it.

411. That would amount to very little more than the head of the Education Department conferring with his colleagues in the Cabinet or with a part of his colleagues in Committee as to what he intends to do?-Yes, I think so.

412. Consequently, the machinery of the Education Department is not a necessary machinery; it is merely the confirmation in Council of what the Lord President and the Vice President intend to do?—Yes.

413. Mr. Stirling.] How often does this Committee meet in the course of the year?-It is very uncertain; it rests with the Lord President to call it together.

414. But does it meet once every year, at least on an average?-Certainly once every year, and sometimes, as in the discussion of the Revised Code, it may perhaps meet weekly.

415. How

415. How many meetings do you suppose, speaking roughly, that it held on the occasion of the Revised Code ?-Speaking very roughly, I should think from 6 to 10.

416. And what should you suppose was the largest attendance at any sitting ?-I think that on one occasion the whole Committee was pre

sent.

417. What should you say was the longest time during which it sat on any one occasion?-I should think that perhaps the Committee may have sat, speaking very oughly, a couple of hours.

418. Chairman.] Is it in the power of the

office to give any return to the Committee show

ing what have been the various attendances of R. W. W. the other Members of the Committee of Council, Lingen, Esq. excepting the Lord President and Vice President, since the year 1849 -The only mode of obtaining that information will be to go through the Court Circular.

419. Have you any record of it in the office? -There is no record, excepting when Minutes have been passed.

420. Is there no record of the attendance of the Members, or how often they met, or who came ?-No.

421. Could you find that out from the Court Circular?-Yes.

21 March 1865.

R. W. W.

1865.

422. Chairman.] IN answer to questions which Lingen, Esq. were put to you on the last day that you were examined, you expressed a strong opinion in favour of assisting the Central Department of Education by some local orginisation, and I local orginisation, and I inferred, from what you said, that you thought that a system of rating was essential to local organisation; was I right in that opinion?-I meant a power of rating.

423. Are you of opinion that it is not possible to establish any effective organisation to promote the education of the country unless such organisation be accompanied by some system of rating? -My opinion is, that it must be accompanied by a power to levy rates. I do not think that it would be necessary in every case to levy a rate.

424. In that answer you are rather contemplating, are you not, the plan which was submitted to the Royal Commission by Mr. Temple? -I have read his evidence, but I do not recollect at this moment the details of it.

425. You are, of course, aware that the question of rating is one upon which very great difference of opinion exists?-Yes.

426. And you know also that a very strong objection is entertained to it by a large proportion of the country?—Yes.

427. Has it ever occurred to you whether it would be possible to establish any joint action between the Central Department and those diocesan boards which are established in most parts of the country?-I have often thought of it, and the difficulty which has generally presented self to me has been this, that although those boards are very real and active in some dioceses and at some times, in other dioceses they are nearly nominal, and, the services of the inspectors and other officers connected with them being entirely gratuitous, they are liable to fluctuations from so many personal accidents that I never could very clearly see my way to make use of them.

428. Have you never considered how far it would be possible, by a little organisation between the Department and the boards, to correct those inequalities of which you have spoken, and to bring the boards into action with the Central Department, especially with a view to inspection? -I have never pursued the idea. Soon after the the Report of the Royal Commission in 1858, a clergyman, in Herefordshire (a Mr. Poole, I think), who has taken a good deal of interest in

education in that part of the country, submitted a proposal to the Committee of Council to the effect that his board would be willing to co-operate with their Lordships, and I submitted his letter to the Vice President, but he at that time thought that the moment was hardly come for entering upon the question; the letter was simply acknowledged, and so the matter has rested since.

429. Would you concur in the opinion that it is impossible for the advocates of general education to rest content until some system reaches the whole of the country?—I should have, I think, to answer that question rather at length if I stated what are my views on the subject. It has always seemed to me that the present system was adopted on the theory that the main part of the education in this country would continue to be voluntarily maintained, and almost in despair of arriving at any national and complete system. I have always understood the idea of its framers to have been that it was possible to improve a certain part of the education which was voluntarily maintained, and so to create throughout the country a standard of education, and promote a desire for education, the means being a very direct and a very minute action on the part of the Government. The system seems to me to be essentially a provisional system, and good from that point of view. But its continuance must depend very much upon the state of public opinion. I never expect to see it become a complete and national system without (to say the least) great modification.

430. Your answer appears rather to refer to an idea which was not included in the question, namely, how far the present exact system could be spread over the country; my question to you is, whether you think that the friends of education can be content until some system reaches the whole of the country; do you think that they ought to be content ?—I am not content with the present system.

431. Then supposing that we go on as we are, and that the system be very considerably extended, even though it may not reach the whole of the country, do you think it possible to carry on inspection with satisfactory efficiency from the Central Department without incurring very great expense?-Not in its present minute form.

432. You spoke in your former examination of letters which were from time to time received, conveying remonstrances, and which were directed to the Lord President, or to the Vice President.

As