MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Martis, 21° die Martii, 1865. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Bruce. Mr. Buxton. Lord Robert Cecil. Mr. Clay. Viscount Enfield. Mr. W. E. Forster. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Liddell. Sir Colman O'Loghlen. Sir John Pakington. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Thompson. Mr. Walpole. Mr. Walter. THE RIGHT HON. SIR JOHN PAKINGTON, BART., IN THE CHAIR. RALPH W. W. LINGEN, Esq., called in; and Examined. 1. Chairman.] You are Secretary of the Committee of Council of Education, are you not? -Yes. 2. How long have you held that office?-I have acted in that office since 1849, and I have held it since 1850. For 12 months I supplied the place of Sir James Kay Shuttleworth during illness. 3. Did you hold any office in that department previously to your succeeding to the_temporary Secretaryship in the place of Sir James Kay Shuttleworth? I was appointed in 1846 to conduct an inquiry into education in Wales, which lasted about nine months, and after that I acted as examiner in the Education Office, from about the middle of 1847 until the end of 1848. 4. Then, in fact, you have been connected with the Education Department from the close of 1846 up to the present time?—Yes. 5. And you have been Secretary since the commencement of 1849 ?—Yes. 6. What was the amount of annual grant at the time when you first became Secretary ?— £. 75,000 or 100,000 7. a year, I think; I am not precisely certain as to the amount, but it did not exceed 100,000 l. 7. Since which time that grant has gradually risen to 840,000 l., and now for the last three years it has declined again, has it not, under the operation of the Revised Code ?-Yes. 8. Under what Lords President have you held your office of Secretary ?-Under Lord Lansdowne, Lord Granville, Lord Lonsdale, Lord Russell, and the Marquess of Salisbury. 9. The office of Vice President of the Education Department was created by an Act of Parliament in 1856, was it not ?—Yes. 21 March 1865. 10. Under what Lords President did you serve R. W. W. from the commencement of your secretaryship Lingen, Esq. up to the passing of that Act in 1856?-From 1849 to the beginning of 1852 under Lord Lansdowne; during 1852 under Lord Lonsdale; in 1853 until some time, I think, in 1855 under Lord Granville; then for a short time under Lord Russell, and then under Lord Granville again in 1856. 11. Will you be so good as to describe to the Committee the system under which the business of the office was transacted from the time when you accepted the secretaryship up to the time of the passing of that Act in 1856, by which the Vice President was appointed?-The daily correspondence of the office was conducted by the Secretary; he signed all the letters and was responsible for all the letters; any letter which he considered of sufficient importance he used to take himself or send, according to circumstances, to the Lord President; and orders for the payments of grants were made by the Lord President. That was the state of the business before the appointment of the Vice President. 12. I apprehend from the answer which you have given that the principal part of the business of the office devolved upon the Secretary?—The current business of the office did so entirely. 13. I understand you to say that the whole of the correspondence devolved on the Secretary?— Subject to his responsibility in taking the more important parts of it to the Lord President. 14. And that, you say, rested entirely in his discretion? It rested entirely in his discretion. 15. In all cases in which he did not think it material to take any particular letter to the Lord President, he would, if I understand you rightly, R. W. W. dispose of that letter and answer it, and dispose 16. Then do I rightly understand you to state, that all orders for payments of money during that period were signed by the Lord President?- The only grants which were made up to the year 1846 were for the building of schools. Those were issued in comparatively large amounts, and the number of cases was small. Every one of those orders for the building of schools was signed by the Lord President, but, in 1846, when grants began to be made for the maintenance of schools, those were much larger in amount, and the cases were far more numerous; and unless a case of that kind presented some unusual feature, an annual grant case would have been disposed of wholly and entirely by the Secretary. The Inspector's Report would have been read; it would have been ascertained whether it con- formed to the Minutes under which those grants were offered, and on the Secretary's signature the grants would have gone forward. 17. Up to what period did that take place?— To a certain extent that lasts to the present time, but that was the regular practice up to 1856, until the appointment of a Vice President. 18. Then the system of business which you have described, namely, that all the correspon- dence was settled by the Secretary, and that merely the money grants were signed by the Lord President, prevailed up to the change which took place in the year 1856 ?—Yes. 19. During that period did the various Lord Presidents attend regularly at the office ?---There were no fixed times at which they should come; but, during the Session of Parliament, a day would scarcely pass without the Lord President's being at the office during the afternoon; and the Secretary could at any time see him at his own residence, if for a day or two he were not at the office, or could communicate with him by letter; but there never were any 20. Speaking now of the whole period, from 1849 to 1856, can you state to what extent the money orders were signed by the Lord President? -Grants for building were always signed by the Lord President, but annual grants for the maintenance of schools were not so signed by 21. Were they submitted to him?--No; not unless they presented some unusual feature. 22. They, like the letters, rested entirely with the Secretary? They rested entirely with the 23. Will you explain to the Committee what change took place in that mode of transacting the business after the appointment of the Vice President in 1856?—The chief change was, that the Vice President gave inuch more constant attendance at the office than had been usually the case under Lords President who were leaders in the House of Lords; and that the Secretary was in more constant communication with the Vice President, and referred to him infinitely more than he did under the previous constitution, when 24. The position of the Secretary became materially changed then from that time, did it not?—I should say that less responsibility rested 25. And he had less independence of action? -There was no Order or Minute which exactly changed his position, but, from the very fact that a second officer was appointed who gave much more constant attendance at the office, the prac tice instantly became that the Secretary went to the Vice President far more frequently than he had ever gone to the Lord President. 26. By the practice of the office after that change, had the Secretary still the control of 27. What were held to be, and what practically were from that time, the duties fulfilled by the Vice President?-On every question, and every letter which suggested any sort of doubt, and which was not completely a matter of settled routine, I always either went to the Vice Presi- 28. You state, as I understand, that from that time you exercised, and I presume that the prac- - 29. In the event of your so submitting it, is it referred with a minute suggesting the answer which should be given, or are you in each case in the habit of seeing the Vice President? I usually write upon the letter what I think should be the answer, and then that is returned to me with the Vice President's written approval 30. You send it to the Vice President with a minute of your own, which he either excepts or with which he deals as he thinks fit?-Yes; but that is not invariably the case; if it were a matter, as it might be, of great doubt, I should write on the papers simply, "Vice President," and the Vice President would probably send for me, and hear what I had to say upon it. 31. Has it not been the practice of the office that any part of the official correspondence goes directly to the Vice President in the first in- stance?-Not unless it goes to him by name. 32. Do you mean, addressed to him personally by name?-If the envelope was directed "Vice President," it would not be opened in the 33. Then has it ever been the habit for the Vice President to take any share in the cor- respondence by drafting letters himself?—Verý 34. Then the correspondence, in fact, with the exception of supervision, exercised as you de- scribe, has still remained with the Secretary?— 35. Have you found that any change has taken place since that office of Vice President was created, in the frequency of the attendance of the Lord President at the office?-I do not think that I could say that there had been. 36. Can you explain to the Committee what have been the separate functions and duties of those two offices, the Lord President and the Vice President, since the creation of the latter office? To myself, as Secretary, the immediate chief has been the Vice President. I may say, I think, that I have transacted all business with the Vice President, with the most trifling excep- 37. From the time of the appointment of a Vice President, I understand that your direct communications with the Lord President have ceased? They have ceased to this extent. For all ordinary business, I go, in the first instance, to the Vice President; but at any time, if I had anything to say to the Lord President about the business of the office, it is still open to me to go to him, and if I had a question to refer, and the Lord President happened to be there, and not the Vice President, I should, as a matter of course, go to the Lord President. 38. You have now stated what have been your own relations with those two offices; but you have not quite answered the question as to what have been, officially speaking, the functions of those two offices since they have acted jointly? -The Lord President has been the controlling officer, so far as I have had the means of knowing, beyond the Vice-President. of referring himself. Generally speaking, he would R. W. W. 47. The only Lords President under whom you 48. Was there any material difference, looking back through the whole period of your secretaryship, in the mode of discharging the duties of Lord President as between the different statesmen who held that office ?-I should say not. 49. Do I understand you to state that there was no material change in their attendance at the office after the creation of the office of VicePresident? I am not able to speak to that, because, before the creation of a Vice President, I should have been looking for the Lord President to be at the office; but, since the creation of a Vice President, unless there may have have been some special reason for going to the Lord President, I have always gone to the Vice President. 50. Do you mean that it might commonly happen that the Lord President might attend at the office without your being aware of the fact? 39. In fact, is it an unfair inference from your answer, that you do not very accurately know what the functions of the Lord President have been? I consider the Lord President to be the superior officer, when he chooses to give an order; but the greater part of the current busi--Constantly. ness of the office is transacted by the Vice President. 40. Have you yourself, in your position of Secretary, looked to the Vice President as your immediate superior ?—Always. 41. And what may have been the relations between the Lord President and the Vice President has not been, I presume, within your own immediate knowledge?-I have heard the Lord President state, in the clearest manner, when these subjects have been under discussion, that he considered his own authority supreme in the office; and that when he made an order, there could be no question at all, if there was a difference of opinion between himself and the Vice President, that his own opinion should prevail, and not the opinion of the Vice President. That I have heard said by Lord Granville. 42. Do you know of any such cases where a difference of opinion existed between the Lord President and the Vice President?-Those cases would not come under my own cognizance. The conversation to which I referred turned merely upon the Order in Council, and the effect of it. 43. Is it within your knowledge, in the event of there being any such difference of opinion, in what manner the decision of the Lord President would be recorded?—I do not think that it would be recorded at all, except by the action taken upon it. 44. Has the Lord President not been in the habit of committing to writing any part of his functions or duties?-Very little. 45. Did no part of the correspondence of the office ever come under the supervision and control of the Lord President?-It would rest with the Vice President. I never should take any official paper directly to the Lord President, except in the absence of the Vice President. 46. Has it ever happened that the Vice President, when you have taken or sent a communication to him, has referred you for the the consideration of that particular paper to the Lord President?-I cannot, at this moment, charge my memory so far as to say whether he has done so or not; but, if he had done so, it would only have been as a more convenient way 51. Therefore, perhaps you are hardly able to inform the Committee how often of late years Lord Granville has been in the habit of attending at the office?-Lord Granville is at the office for all the business of the Council Office, all the Committees that he may appoint or receive the reports of. He is not there for educational business only. 52. You mean for the general business attached to his office as Lord President of the Council ?Yes. 53. Would the Lord President transact his general business and his education business in the same room?—Yes. 54. Therefore, in fact, the frequency of his attendance at the office would be no criterion as to the frequency of his attendance on education business?-No. 55. And you would not be able to judge as to his devoting his time to that business ?-I should not be able to do so myself. 56. Will you inform the Committee what has been your experience since 1849, when you first became Secretary, with regard to any active part in the business of the Education Office being taken by Members of the Committee of Council other than the Lord President and the Vice President? The Home Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the earlier days of the Committee of Council, and when that Committee was assembled more frequently than has been the case of late years, always took a direct part in it; and even now, if the Committee of Council were to be summoned, those two Ministers, at any rate, would take an active part in the proceedings. 57. Is it not the fact, that the present Secretary of State for the Home Department is not a Member of that Committee?- Sir Cornewall Lewis had been appointed a Member of the Committee, not ex officio, but by name; and, after his decease, it was not observed for some little time that the appointment had been by name, and not ex officio. Sir George Grey attended several Committees as Home Secretary, be being not strictly entitled to do so otherwise than in his character of a Privy Councillor; but as soon 21 March 1865. R. W. W. as Lord Granville's attention was called to the Lingen, Esq. fact, an Order in Council was passed, and the Home Secretary is now made a Member of the Committee ex officio. 21 March 1865. 58. Will you be so good as to state what has been the practice with regard to the attendance of those other Members of the Committee, during the time you have held the office of Secretary, as to what extent they have taken an active share in the business of that Department?-Only to the extent of deliberating upon Minutes, or upon draft Minutes, or upon questions of importance which were laid before them by the Lord President; but they have taken no part whatever in the current business of the office. 59. What do you include in the current business of the office; do you mean the mere payment of money to the parishes ?-Yes; and the inspection of schools, and the making of ordinary grants, and deciding upon all particular cases. 60. Can you tell me how often, in the earlier days of your secretaryship, before there was a Vice President, the other Members of the Committee attended to transact education business? -I could ascertain the number of meetings by referring to the Court Circular; but, speaking from general impression, I should think that the Committee met three or four times every Session at least, in the earlier periods of my secretaryship, and, of late years, if there has been any question of great public importance under consideration (as, for instance, the changes of the Code lately), the Committee has met frequently at such times. 61. What Officers of State usually attend those meetings?—At recent Committees, I think that there have been the Lord President, the Duke of Argyll, the Duke of Somerset, Sir George Grey, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I think that those have been almost always present; and, on some occasions, Mr. Villiers has been present also; and I have seen Lord Palmerston present. 62. How has the question been decided from time to time when those Officers of State should or should not give their attendance?—A summons is issued to them, in the name of the Lord President, to say that a Committee will be held at the Council Chamber on such a day and at such an hour. I suppose that it rests with themselves whether they will attend or not. I have no means of knowing what compulsory character the Order might possess. 63. When they have been so summoned, I suppose that the attendance has varied a good deal, has it not?-Yes, very much. 64. Would it not be a fair definition of the circumstances under which those Ministers were convened, to say that their attendance was generally required when some question of detail and some question of importance was to be decided? -Not for questions of detail; but I think that when some general question regarding the policy of the office, or regarding some entire class of grants, has had to be decided; as, for instance, the condition on which building grants should be made, or on which schools should be annually aided, or any question of that kind, their presence has been required. 65. Were not the questions which would be so submitted to that Committee questions the satisfactory decision of which would require a good deal of accurate knowledge of the Educational system of the country?-Yes, I think so. 66. That system being a very complicated one? --Yes. 67. Have you any objection to state to the Committee your opinion, both as a man of business and as having had long experience in that office, whether the decision of such questions would not be more satisfactorily and more prudently arrived at by some one mind which was directed to the subject, rather than by a body of gentlemen who, whatever may be their general abilities, have not been in the habit of considering the subject?—I think that it entirely depends upon the nature of the question referred to the Committee. I believe, for instance, that there are many points of detail connected with the office which one of my subordinates would dispose of better than I could do myself, and I believe that there are other questions which I could dispose of better than the Vice President, and so on. There is a detailed knowledge which becomes less as you ascend, no doubt; but, on the other hand, you get much wider and broader views. I should think that a Lord President who referred a mere question of official detail to the Committee was asking them to give an opinion which they could not possibly have the means of forming; but if he lays before them broader questions, questions of policy, then I think that they are capable of exercising a really responsible judgment on those points. 68. Do you think that there could arise a question of policy so broad that a settlement of it would not be assisted by an exact knowledge of the state of education all over the country?—I think that if you can have detailed knowledge and general knowledge the union of the two is undoubtedly better. 69. Upon those occasions when the Committee has been summoned, and when the other members, besides the President and Vice President, have attended, have you, as Secretary, been usually present? Not necessarily; I have frequently not been present; I have scarcely ever been present during the whole of a Committee of Council. 70. Then it is not within your knowledge how their deliberations are conducted, or in what manner they were decided?—I could not say; it is not within my knowledge; I have been present often at those meetings, but not necessarily throughout the whole of any one of them. 71. What has been the system of the office with regard to the preparation of Minutes; can you describe the history of a Minute before it is submitted to the House of Commons?-It would usually arise from either an apparent need of a greater measure of assistance to schools, or from the need of settling some question which had provoked a great deal of correspondence. A certain number of letters would probably be received from private correspondents, or the official correspondence might raise the question. The Lord President, after a certain length of time, would give instructions, probably to the Secretary, to draw up the draft of a Minute, which would be confidentially printed and circulated among the members of the Committee, and very often remarks would be made upon it, and when finally settled a Committee would be called at which that Minute would be passed, and then laid upon the table of the House of Commons. |